# Gender Segregation and the Olympics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719 "2018-02-12T20:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/61 "2018-02-13T17:19:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The brain is a physical organ governed by natural laws. You think evolution doesn’t impact the brain? Eliminate all gender categories for sports and other contests and we could see a proper sorting. In other words, just what I said at first. “Why do we have lame sports for girls? If the ladies wanna play sports, they can play with the men or STFU.” If the existence of sports for women offends you, I suggest changing the channel. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/62 "2018-02-13T17:32:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > In other words, just what I said at first. “Why do we have lame sports for girls? If the ladies wanna play sports, they can play with the men or STFU.” > > If the existence of sports for women offends you, I suggest changing the channel. What about the female athletes who would at a minimum, like to have the opportunity to compete under the same rules as men? How about ski jump that was denied for them until the last games? Separate is not equal in this case. ---
**Author:** ![NorthernStar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c77e96/32.png) [@NorthernStar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NorthernStar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/63 "2018-02-13T18:36:38Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > What about the female athletes who would at a minimum, like to have the opportunity to compete under the same rules as men? > > How about ski jump that was denied for them until the last games? The decision of which events to include in each Olympics is normally made well in advance of the actual occasion. Normally, IOC only wants “mature” sports and disciplines in the Olympics, that is, ones that are already being practiced in enough countries around the world at a sufficiently serious level. Until very recently, that consideration was not influenced by the PR concerns of formal gender equality to any meaningful extent. When enough women start piloting four-person bobsleigh teams for the international federation to be able to hold actual World Cup races, as opposed to the occasional gimmick team (mixed or not) at the men’s World Cup, I am sure IOC will consider adding such an event to future Olympics. Until then, I neither see nor would support a sports event that is contested by a tiny number of competitors being “gifted” Olympic status just to appease gender equality supporters. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/64 "2018-02-13T18:50:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Strawman, or clarify how evolution even comes into play here. It’s not a strawman. If you can’t, with your own two eyes, see the differences between men and women written words here won’t help. > [@Lemur866](#): > > In other words, just what I said at first. “Why do we have lame sports for girls? If the ladies wanna play sports, they can play with the men or STFU.” > > If the existence of sports for women offends you, I suggest changing the channel. It doesn’t offend me. Why would you think that? It is an interesting point though. If gender or whatever it’s called nowadays is a social construct how come reality wasn’t informed? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/65 "2018-02-13T19:21:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not a strawman. If you can’t, with your own two eyes, see the differences between men and women written words here won’t help. > > It doesn’t offend me. Why would you think that? It is an interesting point though. If gender or whatever it’s called nowadays is a social construct how come reality wasn’t informed? With my own eyes I have observed no cognitive differences that can be directly assigned to XX or XY chromosomes and I am quite positive that even gender expression is not dimorphic as your cite erroneously claimed. > **[Beyond Sexual Orientation: Integrating Gender/Sex and Diverse Sexualities via...](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-015-0490-8)** > > Sexual orientation typically describes people’s sexual attractions or desires based on their sex relative to that of a target. Despite its utility, it has been critiqued in part because it fails to account for non-biological gender-related factors,... I have seen lots of evidence that cultural differences directly lead to divergence in cognitive attainment. These seem to be backed up by empirical data, where the binary claims on cognitive ability seem to be unsupported. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/66 "2018-02-13T19:36:51Z")
No amount of cognitive similarity is going to make the best female biathletes, cross country skiers, ice hockey players, speed skaters, or snowboarders remotely competitive with the best males in those fields. Jury’s still out on the gravity sports like ski jump, based on the brief research I just did. Eliminating women’s divisions would mean eliminating women from Olympic competition in those categories. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/67 "2018-02-13T19:41:03Z")
> [@NorthernStar](#): > > The decision of which events to include in each Olympics is normally made well in advance of the actual occasion. Normally, IOC only wants “mature” sports and disciplines in the Olympics, that is, ones that are already being practiced in enough countries around the world at a sufficiently serious level. Until very recently, that consideration was not influenced by the PR concerns of formal gender equality to any meaningful extent. > > When enough women start piloting four-person bobsleigh teams for the international federation to be able to hold actual World Cup races, as opposed to the occasional gimmick team (mixed or not) at the men’s World Cup, I am sure IOC will consider adding such an event to future Olympics. Until then, I neither see nor would support a sports event that is contested by a tiny number of competitors being “gifted” Olympic status just to appease gender equality supporters. It is easy to dissmiss these as “gimmicks” But can you explain why women are incapable of race-walking 50km, canoeing 100, 200 and 5,000 metres, or swimming 1,500 metres? These restrictions are based on bias, and are not _novel_ desires [https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/world-race-walking-rome-2016-women-50km](https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/world-race-walking-rome-2016-women-50km) > **[The inescapable sexism of the Winter Olympics](https://thinkprogress.org/gender-equality-olympics-3afc68e45226/)** > > The fight isn't over yet. Can you explain why women aren’t allowed to compete like men in ski jumping and Nordic combined? It is not due to it being novel, it is due to discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/68 "2018-02-13T19:44:21Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It doesn’t offend me. Why would you think that? It is an interesting point though. If gender or whatever it’s called nowadays is a social construct how come reality wasn’t informed? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/69 "2018-02-13T19:49:38Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No amount of cognitive similarity is going to make the best female biathletes, cross country skiers, ice hockey players, speed skaters, or snowboarders remotely competitive with the best males in those fields. Jury’s still out on the gravity sports like ski jump, based on the brief research I just did. Eliminating women’s divisions would mean eliminating women from Olympic competition in those categories. Yet this global rule does ignore that women can be competitive (and were barred from) other events. Here is an example, explain why this is the first olympics that women even get to jump. > **[Why There's Almost No Difference Between Men And Women In Ski Jumping](https://www.businessinsider.com/men-women-ski-jumping-comparison-2014-2)** > > They're basically the same. As that article points out women rarely get to compete in the event on the same day and under the same conditions as the men, and often have to compete in other events on courses after the men have run, which in skiing impacts their times. Note that this bias also results in women competing with less experience, and thus less total skill compared to men. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/70 "2018-02-13T19:55:53Z")
Even in this Olympics women ski jumpers are not allowed to use the large hill. [http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/international/ct-olympics-women-ski-jumpers-equality-20180210-story.html](http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/international/ct-olympics-women-ski-jumpers-equality-20180210-story.html) > [@](#): > > At Pyeongchang, women have six fewer medal events than men. In several sports, women are limited to shorter courses; In speed skating, for example, the longest course for men is 10,000 meters. For women, it’s just 5,000 meters. > > And though many women ski jumpers have trained for years on the large hill, they are relegated at Pyeongchang to the smaller hill. Meanwhile, there are zero events for women in ski jumping’s sister sport, Nordic combined. Why restrict them to the smaller hill, except possibly to protect the Men’s egos? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/71 "2018-02-13T19:59:00Z")
The fact is, men are better at all these sports. That’s the current state of affairs. rat avatar is saying “that’s only because of societal differences”. But he doesn’t have to prove this assertion. It’s up to everyone else to prove him wrong. I’m not playing that game. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/72 "2018-02-13T20:16:57Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why restrict them to the smaller hill, except possibly to protect the Men’s egos? There are certainly some women who have trained on and can jump well on the big hill. But is there a big enough athlete pool to make the event safe and competitive? I’m not saying this is the case with women’s jumping, but it may be a factor. Also, if you introduce a number of events at once in a sport that is early in the development stage you’ll end up awarding all the medals to the same small group of athletes since they’ll dominate at many disciplines. I don’t think men’s egos really factors into it. The athletes are almost uniformly for more opportunities for the competitors in their sport, regardless of gender. Side note, one of my roommates and another friend in college were on the US Olympic Ski Jumping teams in 1984 and 1988. They fully supported adding women’s events back then, and they supported the adoption of women’s jumping over the past decade. It’s a bit of a chicken and egg problem, but over time those will work themselves out. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/73 "2018-02-13T20:18:27Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yet this global rule does ignore that women can be competitive (and were barred from) other events. > > Here is an example, explain why this is the first olympics that women even get to jump. > > [Men, Women Ski Jumping Comparison - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/men-women-ski-jumping-comparison-2014-2) > > As that article points out women rarely get to compete in the event on the same day and under the same conditions as the men, and often have to compete in other events on courses after the men have run, which in skiing impacts their times. > > Note that this bias also results in women competing with less experience, and thus less total skill compared to men. Well, now you appear to be talking about two different issues: women having opportunity to compete in the Olympics in women’s divisions, or women having no opportunity to compete in the Olympics via the elimination of women’s divisions. I’m fine with having women’s divisions for every event. I can’t speak to why some events have them and others don’t; I wouldn’t assume discrimination by the IOC before investigating the state of the event worldwide, the existence of sanctioning bodies for women’s divisions, and so on. [Participation rates in sports are much lower for females than for males](http://thesportjournal.org/article/examination-of-gender-equity-and-female-participation-in-sport/), which by itself is going to make it more difficult to establish the structures needed to feed into Olympic competition. The IOC is not responsible for this state of affairs. I am **not** fine with eliminating women’s divisions in favor of gender-neutral competition, because it would almost entirely remove women from the Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![Treppenwitz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treppenwitz/32/3445_2.png) [@Treppenwitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Treppenwitz)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/74 "2018-02-13T20:23:28Z")
A mood lightener, anybody? Regarding mixed curling: > [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s on the tv right now - it looks like there’s only 2 people per team. So I am guessing one of each is the rule. Regular curling is teams of 4 and I woukd imagine they’d be two of each in that case. So: it was the woman doing the sweeping, right? Sorry. No, really, really sorry. Won’t do it again. Promise. j ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/75 "2018-02-13T20:35:33Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > The equestrian events at the Olympics are completely gender-neutral. Men and women compete against each other, and the teams can be any combination of men & women. > > But riding horses in general is very much female dominated. And the Olympic teams repeat this, with about 75% of them being female. But consistently the men win more of the medals. Possibly due to bias by the Judges, but it holds true even in events where the result is more numerically objective, like jumping. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/76 "2018-02-13T21:00:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The fact is, men are better at all these sports. That’s the current state of affairs. rat avatar is saying “that’s only because of societal differences”. But he doesn’t have to prove this assertion. It’s up to everyone else to prove him wrong. I’m not playing that game. He also uses the common tactic/fallacy of insisting on 100% casual relationship on one variable in a multi variable problem before giving even acknowledging that the variable is not a constant. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/77 "2018-02-13T22:41:51Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yet this global rule does ignore that women can be competitive (and were barred from) other events. > > Here is an example, explain why this is the first olympics that women even get to jump. I don’t know at this point if you’re open to facts, but there’s an answer for this: Because there was no international federation asking the IOC to let women jump. The International Olympic Committee does not simply choose sports and events on their own. It doesn’t work that way. The events and participation therein are largely determined by the appropriate international federation for that sport. Those federations not only pitch the events to the Olympics, but the IOC relies on them to provide most of the technical support for how they should be run. When people talk about the specific of “Olympic hockey,” that is absolutely a misconception. The hockey played at the Olympics is IIHF hockey. The reason there’s 100m, 200m and 400m sprinting events in the Summer Games but not a 60m or 300m event is that the IAAF, not the IOC, runs 100m, 200m and 400m sprints, but not 60m or 300m. Women’s ski jumping was not an World Cup event \*at all \*until 2011. The Olympics could not have had it any earlier than the international federation had such a sport, and it takes a few Olympic cycles for sports or events to be adopted, if they are at all. You can say the FIS-Ski was sexist on this file, but not the IOC. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/78 "2018-02-14T01:39:27Z")
I watch a lot of curling and have seen a couple matches between a top women’s team and a good (but probably not top) men’s team and the women always lose. There are two places they fall down on: ability to throw a very hard shot and ability to sweep. It seems to be more a matter of physical size than actual skill. The top women are very skillful, just not as strong. As it happened, a few hours ago I watched the gold medal mixed doubles game and after the Canadian team won, the male player lifted the female player over his head in celebration. He is 6’3" and she is 5’3" and his profession is as a fireman. I am sure she could not have lifted him. Look at the sports that are measured, either time or distance, and you will find a marked disparity between the men and women’s results. Now what I have often wondered about is why there are separate women’s competitions in bridge. Women compete on an equal basis in ordinary (open) events, so why are women’s events needed. What about chess? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/79 "2018-02-14T03:39:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t know at this point if you’re open to facts, but there’s an answer for this: Because there was no international federation asking the IOC to let women jump. > > The International Olympic Committee does not simply choose sports and events on their own. It doesn’t work that way. The events and participation therein are largely determined by the appropriate international federation for that sport. Those federations not only pitch the events to the Olympics, but the IOC relies on them to provide most of the technical support for how they should be run. When people talk about the specific of “Olympic hockey,” that is absolutely a misconception. The hockey played at the Olympics is IIHF hockey. The reason there’s 100m, 200m and 400m sprinting events in the Summer Games but not a 60m or 300m event is that the IAAF, not the IOC, runs 100m, 200m and 400m sprints, but not 60m or 300m. > > Women’s ski jumping was not an World Cup event \*at all \*until 2011. The Olympics could not have had it any earlier than the international federation had such a sport, and it takes a few Olympic cycles for sports or events to be adopted, if they are at all. You can say the FIS-Ski was sexist on this file, but not the IOC. > [@](#): > > Fostering gender equality and strengthening women’s participation in and through sport is one of the key missions of the IOC. > **[IOC launches bold initiative on gender equality - Olympic News](https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-launches-bold-initiative-on-gender-equality)** > > The International Olympic Committee (IOC) Executive Board today approved a major review project regarding gender equality in the Olympic Movement. > [@](#): > > In 1991 the IOC announced that all future Olympic sports must be open to both genders, but the rule didn’t apply to sports that already existed [http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1963484\_1963490\_1963447,00.html](http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1963484_1963490_1963447,00.html) > [@](#): > > Female ski jumpers have petitioned to join every Winter Olympics since Nagano in 1998, and each time they have been denied by the International Olympics Committee (IOC). In fact, ski jumping is the only Olympic discipline to remain men-only. > [@](#): > > And yet the IOC allowed Vancouver to add something called ski cross — a freestyle discipline in which multiple skiers race over bumps and jumps, like a snowy version of motocross — even though at the time of its application, the sport reportedly had fewer participants than women’s ski jumping. Why does it seem that this only seems valid as an excuse, and not an actual limitation? [http://www.wsjusa.com/olympic-inclusion/](http://www.wsjusa.com/olympic-inclusion/) > [@](#): > > The historic human rights legal battle resulted in the British Columbia Supreme Court declaring in 2009 that the IOC exhibited gender discrimination by excluding women’s ski jumping from the Vancouver Games, but stopped short of forcing VANOC and the IOC to hold an event for women. Do you have a cite that this BC supreme court didn’t have as information? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/80 "2018-02-14T04:08:40Z")
If we get rid of separate women’s events do we also need to lose weight divisions, youth events, the paralympics? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719.md?page=5)