# Gender Segregation and the Olympics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719 "2018-02-12T20:55:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/101 "2018-02-14T15:52:33Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It was not added despite the FIS recommendation, it was denied. It was a lawsuit in British Columbia, where the Olympics lost a discrimination case that resulted in a **single** event being added, and only on the small hill. The historic human rights legal battle resulted in the British Columbia Supreme Court declaring in 2009 that the IOC exhibited gender discrimination by excluding women’s ski jumping from the Vancouver Games, but stopped short of forcing VANOC and the IOC to hold an event for women. How did the case result in women’s ski jumping being added in 2014, when it didn’t order the IOC to add any events? Perhaps through public pressure, but not the court action itself. Recall that 2011 was also the year the FIS added women to the ski jump World Cup, and that the sports federations have an enormous amount of power over what goes into the Olympics. Once again, the FIS appears to be the roadblock; once they included women, the Olympics followed suit at the next opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/102 "2018-02-14T16:26:58Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > They lost the action to be added to the 2010 games, but won for inclusion in future gains. > > The part they lost was the remediation, they won the discrimination portion. What does that even mean? They were trying to force the Olympics to either include women’s ski jump or exclude men’s. They lost. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/103 "2018-02-14T16:32:03Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Do not place another posters theory that women are mentally inferior in sport on me, seriously as a moderator one would think that you could better follow the spirit of the rules for this board. Seriously, **rat avatar** , you need to relax a little and read a bit more closely. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/104 "2018-02-14T16:44:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Seriously, **rat avatar** , you need to relax a little and read a bit more closely. So much for the _Attack the post, not the poster_ rule? > [@CarnalK](#): > > With all due respect, in most sports it makes obvious sense. Men have physical advantages. And if you accept that there are physical differences, it is not beyond reason to suggest that in the less obvious sports there is a mental difference that has a male advantage. I know that there’s well studied differences in pattern recognition, for example. From an evolutionary view it’s not outlandish to think men might average better at mentally judging trajectories and being able to apply that judgement. Maybe it would help to read here a bit more closely instead of building strawmen? Can you not address that the same people who were in charge of restricting women’s access in the FIS were the same individuals who were in the IOC, and also address how this was not adding an additional sport, but simply adding in the women’s competition? U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association dropped the women’s ski jumping program in 2009. This decision was based upon budget cuts and because women’s ski jumping was not part of the Olympic program. You can’t just ignore these effects or that it was the Olympics that originally banned women based on false health claims. Seriously to pretend this isn’t discrimination and that some of the responsibility is not asignable to IOC members is just absurd. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/105 "2018-02-14T16:58:44Z")
I don’t get why you quoted me for that comment. Honestly, I could see ski jumping being pretty close to a gender neutral sport. There isn’t much to it after all - it’s basically "hold an aerodynamic position for 20 seconds. I’m sure there were some sexist people involved in the decision to not include it initially but the main stated reasons aren’t really unbelievable. It was grandfathered in and only newly accepted sports have to be both men and women. Frankly, I am not all that fond of women’s hockey being in. It’s basically a Canada v USA thing with Canada usually winning because there really isn’t any world competition for them. Maybe inclusion in the Olympics will spur growth in women’s hockey in other countries but it doesn’t seem to have had much effect so far. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/106 "2018-02-14T17:06:40Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I don’t get why you quoted me for that comment. > > Honestly, I could see ski jumping being pretty close to a gender neutral sport. There isn’t much to it after all - it’s basically "hold an aerodynamic position for 20 seconds. I’m sure there were some sexist people involved in the decision to not include it initially but the main stated reasons aren’t really unbelievable. It was grandfathered in and only newly accepted sports have to be both men and women. Frankly, I am not all that fond of women’s hockey being in. It’s basically a Canada v USA thing with Canada usually winning because there really isn’t any world competition for them. Maybe inclusion in the Olympics will spur growth in women’s hockey in other countries but it doesn’t seem to have had much effect so far. Because RickJay was building a strawman that the mental portion of his thread was my theory. > [@](#): > > That said, I am now baffled as to what rat avatar’s thesis is. Is he saying women are capable of complete sport equity with men (which is insane) or just that there isn’t a cognitive difference (which may be the case but so what?) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/107 "2018-02-14T17:08:03Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So much for the _Attack the post, not the poster_ rule? You were upset that I wrote something which was, in fact, the exact opposite of what I wrote. I’m not attacking you, I’m honestly suggesting you relax a bit and read a bit more closely. This isn’t an issue anyone has to take personally. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/108 "2018-02-14T17:08:20Z")
> [@rat avatar](#): > > Because RickJay was building a strawman that the mental portion of his thread was my theory. Yeah, but I just proposed the possibility. You pretty much denied it and demanded to be proven wrong. I think it isn’t unfair to give you some responsibility for a “theory” there. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/109 "2018-02-14T17:13:39Z")
Look rat, all your cites about people’s opinions are irrelevant as evidence that women and men have identical brain structure. For that you need evidence. Indirect such as performance results and IQ tests or direct such as brain scans. What some ski jump person did or did not say is a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/110 "2018-02-14T17:35:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Look rat, all your cites about people’s opinions are irrelevant as evidence that women and men have identical brain structure. For that you need evidence. Indirect such as performance results and IQ tests or direct such as brain scans. What some ski jump person did or did not say is a red herring. Where did I say they have identical brain structure? I was pretty clear that these minor population level differences are not a predictor of individual ability. We will never know, because we won’t even allow women’s teams to use the same rules or to use the _scary big jumps_ that they train on. It is still sexism to limit women from competing in the same rules and the same events, and it is quite clear that the ‘wandering uterus’ style myths is a significant contributing factor for these arbitrary restrictions. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/111 "2018-02-14T17:36:43Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yeah, but I just proposed the possibility. You pretty much denied it and demanded to be proven wrong. I think it isn’t unfair to give you some responsibility for a “theory” there. If a proposition has not been proven, then it cannot be considered true and must therefore be considered false. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/112 "2018-02-14T17:42:33Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > If a proposition has not been proven, then it cannot be considered true and must therefore be considered false. Is that your science expertness talking? OK. So “many sports are only male dominated because of social inequality” is also false. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/113 "2018-02-14T17:50:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Is that your science expertness talking? OK. So “many sports are only male dominated because of social inequality” is also false. Strawman ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/114 "2018-02-14T17:59:30Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Where did I say they have identical brain structure? > > I was pretty clear that these minor population level differences are not a predictor of individual ability. > > We will never know, because we won’t even allow women’s teams to use the same rules or to use the _scary big jumps_ that they train on. It is still sexism to limit women from competing in the same rules and the same events, and it is quite clear that the ‘wandering uterus’ style myths is a significant contributing factor for these arbitrary restrictions. You are fixated on the silly ski jump. Look at swim, track, bicycling times. Look at chess which isn’t a sport and has very few women near the top. Look at billiards. And minor population differences are the difference in the 0.004% of the population that are Olympic athletes. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/115 "2018-02-14T18:01:56Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Strawman It’s not a strawman. Do you know what that means? He’s just applying your standard on your statement. Not applying your own demanded level of rigor on your own statement is hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/116 "2018-02-14T18:07:16Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Strawman “I don’t think that the gender divide makes much sense in many of the competitions. Can men’s typical size advantage really mean much in curling?” “I would think that a coaching gap could explain a lot of the difference in some of these sports.” “it could be based on gender norms etc…” “That was a listing of all of the events I could think of in the Winter Olympics, not that all would be equal, but that many could be very close.” All unproven assertions by you, and thus according to you must be considered false. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/117 "2018-02-14T18:08:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not a strawman. Do you know what that means? He’s just applying your standard on your statement. Not applying your own demanded level of rigor on your own statement is hypocritical. It is a strawman, I never made this claim. > [@](#): > > “many sports are only male dominated because of social inequality” I have focused on social inequity causing a lack of opportunity. I would never generalize to all sport, that was a concession in debate because people cannot defend the best original Winter Olympics event example. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/118 "2018-02-14T18:42:46Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is a strawman, I never made this claim. > > I have focused on social inequity causing a lack of opportunity. I would never generalize to all sport, that was a concession in debate because people cannot defend the best original Winter Olympics event example. Social inequity definitely plays a role. It’s not the only factor though. I find it interesting that the presence of other factors is a reason to dismiss biological or physical factors in these discussions though. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/119 "2018-02-14T22:21:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Does anyone think it’s a bit archaic / old-fashioned / oppressive / untoward to still maintain separate gendered events (e.g. men’s and women’s snowboarding / alpine skiing / hockey) in the Olympics? I watched a bit of mixed curling early on in the Olympics, and it seemed refreshingly inclusive. Any chance we see a “mixed snowboard halfpipe” event in 2022/2026/2030? AFAIK, there are three events where men and women compete together: mixed doubles curling, pairs figure skating, and ice dancing. The rules for figure skating say that, in both of those events, it must be one man and one woman. (In fact, until the 2017-18 season, the International Skating Union threatened sanctions against anyone that competed in a competition, such as the Gay Games, that had pairs skating where both persons in the couple were the same sex.) There is also a “team event” in alpine skiing, but this is having men race against men and women race against women, and the results combined. This, or probably something along the lines of a cross country relay team, is probably as close to a mixed event as you are going to get in most sports. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719/120 "2018-02-14T22:59:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > IMO, considering _all_ top-level chess players receive tutoring from a young age, and considering to be one of the best in the world there probably is a genetic component and “regression to the mean” to contend with…I think it shows massive potential for women’s ratings to improve. > > Whether in a hypothetical universe where the same number of men and women play the game seriously and receive equal training, men, women, or neither, gender would win more tournaments is difficult to say. > > And really: I think it’s at least possible women have some natural _advantage_ at the game, but that advantage is right now trivially swamped by other factors. My instinct is to agree with all of this. But as it’s not proven, apparently I am supposed to declare it false or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-segregation-and-the-olympics/808719.md?page=7)