# Gender Support Thread for Dopers who are gender diverse, families of trans people, or allies **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 7, 2024, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563 "2024-03-07T03:51:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2024, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/101 "2024-03-18T01:25:22Z")
Quite true. I’ve had my run-ins. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/102 "2024-03-18T19:57:31Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > White hetero males may have inflicted a lot of pain and in many cases continue to do so, but it’s not to your benefit. You’ve typically broadcast a hostility I sense a lot of anger here. But I feel a bit offended at being tarred by that brush. > [@AHunter3](#): > > I disapproved of masculine males I myself hate that locker-room, hazing, ‘if you can’t take it you’re not a real man’ crap. As I’ve said, I was bullied at school. You’re one of those nerds who likes books and science and all that shit? Well, let’s see how that does for you when a Real Guy twists your arm and makes you cry? It’s not always about gender. It’s about power, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/103 "2024-03-19T18:38:09Z")
Something I only just learned yesterday - "Thought nonbinary gender was a modern concept? Think again. The ancient Jewish understanding of gender was far more nuanced than many assume. The Talmud, a huge and authoritative compendium of Jewish legal traditions, contains in fact no less than eight gender designations including: 1. _Zachar,_ male. 2. _Nekevah_, female. 3. _Androgynos_, having both male and female characteristics. 4. _Tumtum_, lacking sexual characteristics. 5. _Aylonit hamah,_ identified female at birth but later naturally developing male characteristics. 6. _Aylonit adam,_ identified female at birth but later developing male characteristics through human intervention. 7. _Saris hamah_, identified male at birth but later naturally developing female characteristics. 8. _Saris adam_, identified male at birth and later developing female characteristics through human intervention. In fact, not only did the rabbis recognize six genders that were neither male nor female, they had a tradition that the first human being was both. Versions of this midrash are found throughout rabbinic literature, including in the Talmud: Rabbi Yirmeya ben Elazar also said: Adam was first created with two faces (one male and the other female). As it is stated: “You have formed me behind and before, and laid Your hand upon me.” (Psalms 139:5) > **[The Eight Genders in the Talmud | My Jewish Learning](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-eight-genders-in-the-talmud/?fbclid=IwAR1fpj0TaD076m3wqo1a1p5Y0JITtD0-5g9FdtP1iN6_KwuDYAMtTRzpqjc)** > > Thought nonbinary gender was a modern concept? Think again. The ancient Jewish understanding of gender was far more nuanced than ... ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/104 "2024-03-19T18:44:00Z")
Also, here is a handy link to refute various politicians who present their anti-trans policies as ‘preventing children from making irreversible decisions that they will later regret’, often followed by a an anecdote an a spurious number of trans people who have remorse after transitioning - according to this article, 94% of trans people are happier after they transition. > **[94% of transgender Americans happier after transitioning, survey shows](https://gcn.ie/transgender-americans-happier-after-transitioning-survey/?fbclid=IwAR0FK1x_o_5gL9G8L88mcdvB8qKTPqiAyllkCHuFFcQfDLpiLPQ4a8hPjf0)** > > The largest-ever survey of transgender people in the US demonstrates the importance of gender-affirming care as trans rights are under attack. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/105 "2024-03-23T00:41:28Z")
Very upsetting news from Oklahoma - [spoiler] following the coroner’s verdict of ‘suicide’ in the death of non-binary teen Nex Benedict, the Tulsa police have announced there will be no charges laid in the case of their death. I was suspicious, and remain suspicious, about the coroner’s verdict, but at the time I thought “Well, at least you can’t bully someone to the point of suicide and get away with it!”. I was wrong. Here’s the link to the CNN article - Trigger warning - this is very upsetting news! First the coroner’s report labelled non-binary teen Nex Benedict’s death a suicide rather than from injuries sustained in their assault. Now, the Tulsa police have stated that there will be no charges laid in their death. I’m horrified. When the verdict of ‘suicide’ came out, I thought “Well, at least there will still be charges laid - you can’t bully someone to the point of suicide and get away with it!”. Now, I’m grappling with my suspicion about the coroner’s report all over again, and I’m also dealing with the statement that a non-binary person’s death is meaningless in the state of Oklahoma. And we have politicians in Canada who want to bring in, or have already brought in, oppressive anti-trans legislation here. We need to fight them with every legal means at our disposal! xhttps://www.cnn.com/2024/03/21/us/no-charges-nex-benedict-death-tulsa-oklahoma/index.html [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/106 "2024-03-23T00:58:44Z")
I thought [it was determined](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/death-of-nonbinary-oklahoma-teen-after-school-fight-ruled-a-suicide-officials-say) to be an overdose. > A summary autopsy report shows 16-year-old Nex Benedict, who used they/them pronouns, had toxic levels of two drugs in their system and died of an overdose. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/107 "2024-03-23T01:01:45Z")
Suicide by overdose was the ruling which I saw. [Death of non-binary teen Nex Benedict ruled a suicide, medical examiner says | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/oklahoma-nex-benedict-death-1.7143377) . Please forgive my paranoia, but I don’t trust the coroner’s findings, especially in light of the fact that charges will not be laid. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/108 "2024-03-23T01:13:31Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Please forgive my paranoia, but I don’t trust the coroner’s findings Yes, I hope more eyes are reading the toxicology reports. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/109 "2024-03-23T03:14:19Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > I thought [it was determined to be an overdose. Even if so: bullying someone into suicide is apparently a crime. And so is gang-beating somebody up. Which I, at least, think it should be even if they did throw water on you first. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/110 "2024-03-23T05:01:57Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > The Talmud, a huge and authoritative compendium of Jewish legal traditions, contains in fact no less than eight gender designations including: This makes it surprisingly easy for religious Jews to support their trans children. People vary, of course, but i have a friend who is an Orthodox Jew with a trans daughter, and another friend who is a very traditional conservative Jew who has a trans son, and they are both handling it pretty well. Their congregations have accepted their children’s genders, and their friends and community support both then and their kids. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/111 "2024-03-23T08:53:26Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > I was suspicious, and remain suspicious, about the coroner’s verdict, but at the time I thought “Well, at least you can’t bully someone to the point of suicide and get away with it!”. I was wrong. Yes. Sad but true - bullies are not held accountable for bullying someone to suicide. There have been one or two cases brought to court but by and large it’s a form of murder you can get away with. I think that goes back to suicide carrying a stigma and the person killing themselves being perceived as not strong enough or someone morally failing. It’s wrong, but that’s the world we currently live in. > [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Now, I’m grappling with my suspicion about the coroner’s report all over again, and I’m also dealing with the statement that a non-binary person’s death is meaningless in the state of Oklahoma. The coroner’s report might well be entirely accurate - Nex’s injuries may not have been fatal or serious and the cause of death really was suicide. [However, a politician describing a deceased teen as “filth” is absolutely appalling.](https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/26/oklahoma-senator-tom-woods-lgbtq-filth-nex-benedict/) > [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Please forgive my paranoia, but I don’t trust the coroner’s findings, especially in light of the fact that charges will not be laid. Charges are almost never laid when someone is bullied to suicide. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Even if so: bullying someone into suicide is apparently a crime. Actually… not usually. It should be. Bullying is still tolerated way too much in our society. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/112 "2024-03-23T15:38:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > Even if so: bullying someone into suicide is apparently a crime. > > Actually… not usually. It should be. Apparently it is in that jurisdiction. > **[Oklahoma prosecutors will not press charges in Nex Benedict case](https://www.npr.org/2024/03/21/1240079971/nex-benedict-case-tulsa-da)** > > Benedict, a nonbinary teen, died by suicide after a high school fight. The Tulsa County district attorney says the fight was mutual and there's not enough evidence to press charges. > Bullying someone to attempt or complete suicide is a felony in Oklahoma, [reported member station KOSU](https://www.kosu.org/local-news/2024-03-21/tulsa-county-prosecutor-wont-pursue-charges-in-owasso-teenagers-death). ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/113 "2024-03-23T16:59:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > However, a politician describing a deceased teen as “filth” is absolutely appalling. And that, in a nutshell, is why I keep bringing up the Christian denominations and congregations that are affirming and supportive of the LGTBQ2S+ community. Even setting aside the state senator’s comments that Oklahoma is a ‘Christian’ state (uhh, what?!?), the state senator is saying that only his version of Christianity is valid. It seems to me that establishing a state religion as one specific denomination is a big no-no… ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/114 "2024-03-24T22:51:42Z")
A great article examining the flawed study behind ideas of ‘social contagion theory’, and Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD). TL;DR - those two terms are being used frequently in discussions of legislation restricting trans youth from accessing gender affirming care, but the study has major flaws and has been pretty much refuted. However, the study is still being cited as if it were established scientific fact. Social Contagion Theory and ROGD are descriptive terms used to depict coming out as trans as being something linked to peer pressure and wanting to fit in. These are the sorts of ideas repeated by people who think that drag queen story time will lead to kids becoming trans - those same people tend to refer to gender affirming care as ‘children making irreversible life altering decisions before they are ready’. > **[Understanding ‘social contagion theory’ and what it means for trans kids |...](https://xtramagazine.com/health/trans-health/social-contagion-theory-explained-263013)** > > Where did this idea come from? How does it affect the trans community? Does the science hold up? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/115 "2024-03-24T23:09:01Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > So it’s the second biggest Church after the Catholics in Canada. That speaks for something, so much the better. How is the stance of officials, clergy and laity in the Canadian Catholic Church? We all know that the Vatican’s stance still is discriminatory and vile (just regard the latest slamming of “gender ideology” by Pope Francis), but at least here in Germany, many things have changed for the better in the last few years. I’m so sorry, I missed this part of your reply until now. There’s a division between the clergy, the laity, and the actual members of the church, and depending on where you are, that division can be very large. Clergy are officially strongly against any further acceptance of the LGTBQ2S+ community in society, and dead set against their acceptance in the church. There is a minority of clergy who are more accepting, and there are a number of clergy who will confess (in private) to being gay. Laity are all over the map on this question. Here in Ontario, in York region, there is a board of the York Catholic District School Board that is militantly anti-LGTBQ2S+, refusing to allow gay-straight alliances (GSAs; these are after school social clubs that encourage both gay and straight teens to spend time together and get to know and understand each other. There is a lot of research into their benefit in reducing incidents of bullying.), and refusing to fly a Pride flag at their schools. Other jurisdictions are not anywhere near as militant. Within the membership of the Catholic church, the feeling is much more liberal and understanding, though there are pockets of very conservative feeling. In Québec, where the Catholic church was an extremely socially conservative force in politics for decades but is now in severe decline in both membership and influence, the membership is less and less tolerant of Catholic interference in what the populace sees as a social issue that is none of the church’s damned business. A sea change from even 40 - 50 years ago. And anecdotally - during the 2 1/2 years when I worked in the office of an affirming congregation of the United Church of Canada, I fielded three phone calls from three different Catholic teenagers, all of whom had the same problem - they were LGTBQ2S+, but were in danger of being disowned by their families and being told by their priests that God would no longer love them if they came out. I referred all of them in their turn to our youth minister, at which point our rules of confidentiality took over. Other than occasionally saying to him ‘I hope ‘Teen X’ is doing well, please give them my best.’, it was none of my business how things had worked out. That being said, the youth minister told me what little he could, and in all three cases, their lives were very different, but they did indeed come out and work through a lot of stuff with family and former church. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/116 "2024-03-24T23:13:21Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > It seems to me that establishing a state religion as one specific denomination is a big no-no… Oddly enough, in the UK the Chuch of England is theoretically the ‘state religion’. But apart from maybe some tax breaks for them, that doesn’t really have any significance. I shudder to think of living in a country where Islam has power. Judaism, on the other hand, seems quite reasonable… As a humanist agnostic, though, I strongly prefer no ‘official’ religion. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/117 "2024-03-24T23:19:12Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > Judaism, on the other hand, seems quite reasonable… Er… yes and no. The largest denominations of Judaism these days seem quite reasonable but there are some absolute looney-tunes groups out there on the fringe. I prefer there to be no dominant, organized religion. I prefer my government secular and my society tolerant. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/118 "2024-03-24T23:26:47Z")
I’m very sorry, my friends, I should have been clearer - to my limited knowledge, in the US, I believe the establishment of any ‘state religion’ is a no no. It might even be somewhere in the constitution. (I am not a US constitutional scholar, nor have I played one on television. I’m not even a citizen…) ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/119 "2024-03-24T23:30:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The largest denominations of Judaism these days seem quite reasonable but there are some absolute looney-tunes groups out there on the fringe. You may well be right. From what little I know of jewish culture, it seems sensible: respect for learning and scholarship etc, and not having a drive to convert by force. The jewish people I have known seem pleasant and tolerant. Though I guess there are looney-tunes on every fringe. But yes, government secular and society tolerant for me too. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563/120 "2024-03-24T23:38:54Z")
Respect for learning and no drive to convert are AFAIK universal in Judaism. However, there are plenty of fundy Jewish groups. They will happily tell you why homosexuality is an abomination, trans folk are just deluded, and that will buy tombstones and hold funerals if their child marries a gentile. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-support-thread-for-dopers-who-are-gender-diverse-families-of-trans-people-or-allies/998563.md?page=7)