# Gender Symbols... their origins... I was way off. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333 "2009-07-26T17:06:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Aelita\_Daystar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Aelita\_Daystar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aelita_Daystar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/1 "2009-07-26T17:06:36Z")
I only just now learned where the symbols for male and female comes from. I thought I knew, but looking back I just kind of assumed things. I just looked at them and speculated on what they meant. Now, the correct answer seems to be that they are actually alchemical symnols. The male symbol is really the alchemical symbol for the planet Mars. The female symbol is really the alchemical symbol for the planet Venus. All this time I had totally different ideas as to what those symbols meant. I thought that the female symbol was an ankh. I’d always heard that the ankh represented life. I know the meaning behind the ankh is more complicated than that, but hey I was still in elementary school at the time. I thought that, since women have kids, then it makes sense that women are assoiciated with the ankh. It was much later that I came up with an explanation for the male symbol. Actually it was years later before I even knew the symbol existed, (My first exposure to the other symbol was the Women’s Suffrage wonder in the original Civilization. I didn’t even see the other one until later). For a while it just puzzled me, but eventually I concluded that it was an abstract representation of male genitalia. Now that I know the actual origins of those symbols I can’t believe I could have thought those other things were the real origins. After all, I came up with those explanations myself and never shared them, so how would I know if it was right? I was surprised to discover they had other origins, but honestly, how could I be surprised? Did anybody else have the wrong ideas about those things? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/2 "2009-07-26T17:46:39Z")
I used to think that the female symbol was a hand mirror and the male was a shield and sword. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/3 "2009-07-26T17:58:26Z")
I also heard it as “mirror or arrow”. Mind you, that was as a mneumonic device. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/4 "2009-07-26T18:03:26Z")
I always thought of them as extremely stylized representations of the defining features of male and female anatomy. Not that that was the whole origin, but I suspect it certainly had an influence. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/5 "2009-07-26T18:35:05Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I used to think that the female symbol was a hand mirror and the male was a shield and sword. Same here - that’s how my mom explained it to me when I was a kid. > [@Sunspace](#): > > I always thought of them as extremely stylized representations of the defining features of male and female anatomy. Not that that was the whole origin, but I suspect it certainly had an influence. And this is the explanation I came across later. ---
**Author:** ![PetW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@PetW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PetW)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/6 "2009-07-27T00:41:05Z")
> [@Aelita\_Daystar](#): > > Now, the correct answer seems to be that they are actually alchemical symnols. Why do you call them alchemical? Aren’t they astronomical? ---
**Author:** ![Aelita\_Daystar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Aelita\_Daystar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aelita_Daystar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/7 "2009-07-27T01:14:02Z")
> [@PetW](#): > > Why do you call them alchemical? Aren’t they astronomical? Okay I just looked it up… apparently it’s used for both. Like the Astronomical symbol for Mars is also used in alchemy for both Mars and iron. It’s a bit more complicated than I thought. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/8 "2009-07-27T01:37:36Z")
But where did the symbols for Mars and Venus come from? Perhaps there is still some connection to genitalia. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/9 "2009-07-27T01:50:37Z")
I knew the symbols as a dedicated astronomy geek for several years before first seeing them used to represent sex. I found it odd: “Why are they using the symbol for the planet Mars for men and the planet Venus for women? Why those and not Mercury or Saturn or Jupiter or something?” If you turn them both upside down they look like stylized representations of (christian) church and devil, respectively. Coincidental, but weird, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/10 "2009-07-27T02:20:55Z")
Didn’t read your whole post before- so men really _are_ from Mars, and women from Venus? ---
**Author:** ![Aelita\_Daystar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Aelita\_Daystar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aelita_Daystar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/11 "2009-07-27T02:21:59Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Didn’t read your whole post before- so men really _are_ from Mars, and women from Venus? I suppose that’s where the phrase came from. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/12 "2009-07-27T02:26:38Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I knew the symbols as a dedicated astronomy geek for several years before first seeing them used to represent sex. I found it odd: “Why are they using the symbol for the planet Mars for men and the planet Venus for women? Why those and not Mercury or Saturn or Jupiter or something?” Greek/Roman mythology. Aphrodite (Venus) and Ares (Mars) are the archetypal male and female. Ancient sex symbols, like. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/13 "2009-07-27T02:30:19Z")
> [@PetW](#): > > Why do you call them alchemical? Aren’t they astronomical? Didn’t astronomy borrow them from the alchemists? hh ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/14 "2009-07-27T02:42:08Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I used to think that the female symbol was a hand mirror and the male was a shield and sword. Why do you no longer think so? That’s one interpretation of their origin, which was as has been mentioned from the astrological symbols for Mars and Venus. The symbol for Mars, the god of war, includes his shield and spear; that for Venus, the goddess of love and beauty, represents his mirror. [This reference](http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/seri/Obs../0057//0000239.000.html) shows the astrological symbols as depicted in the early 1500s. On the [following page](http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1934Obs....57..238M) Mars’ symbol is identified as including a spear. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/15 "2009-07-27T02:44:21Z")
> [@Electric\_Warrior](#): > > Greek/Roman mythology. Aphrodite (Venus) and Ares (Mars) are the archetypal male and female. Ancient sex symbols, like. It might be noted that Mars was also Venus’s lover, although she was married to Vulcan. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/16 "2009-07-27T03:08:06Z")
The female symbol, same as the ankh, is a stylized rendition of a vagina. The male symbol is an erect phallus. They also happen to be the symbol for Venus (both goddess and planet) and Mars (both god an planet), because those two were the shagging goddess and god (even though pappy Jupiter wasn’t anybody’s idea of a blushing flower, just to mention one). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/17 "2009-07-27T04:41:19Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The symbol for Mars, the god of war, includes his shield and spear; that for Venus, the goddess of love and beauty, represents his mirror. My understanding of Greek mythology just went into a post-modernist spin… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/18 "2009-07-27T15:15:25Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Didn’t astronomy borrow them from the alchemists? That is a modern distinction that never would have occurred to the folks who were using those symbols. “Alchemists” used “astrology” in their work – they consulted the positions of planets, etc. to determine when to start various alchemical procedures. To them, it was all interrelated – some metals, salts, processes, etc. are masculine, fiery, or whatever and thus relate to Mars. > [@Nava](#): > > The female symbol, same as the ankh, is a stylized rendition of a vagina. The male symbol is an erect phallus. They also happen to be the symbol for Venus (both goddess and planet) and Mars (both god an planet), because those two were the shagging goddess and god (even though pappy Jupiter wasn’t anybody’s idea of a blushing flower, just to mention one). Eh? I thought that the Ankh was a stylized rendition of a sandal? The symbol for Mars represents both god, planet, and the metal iron. Venus: goddess, planet, copper. Jupiter’s symbol represents god, planet, tin, and is supposed to be a stylized lightning bolt. Mercury’s symbol is god, planet, mercury (quicksilver), and represents Hermes’ winged caduceus (_not_ the staff of Asclepius). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/19 "2009-07-27T19:26:21Z")
Right. 7 classical planets/Gods, 7 classical metals, and 7 days of the week. Sun=Gold=Sunday Mercury=Mercury=Wednesday Venus=Copper=Friday Moon=Silver=Monday Mars=Iron=Tuesday Jupiter=Tin=Thursday Saturn=Lead=Saturday In romance languages they use the Roman names, but in English we use the northern european equivalents, so Tiu=Mars, Freya=Venus, Thor=Jupiter, and Wotan=Mercury. And as was mentioned, alchemy, metallurgy, astronomy, and mythology weren’t distinct disciplines. They thought they were on to something important when they linked planets and days and symbols and substances and gods. ---
**Author:** ![Kyrie\_Eleison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kyrie_eleison/32/7682_2.png) [@Kyrie\_Eleison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyrie_Eleison)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333/20 "2009-07-27T22:31:30Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > … mneumonic device. You have just blown my mind. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gender-symbols-their-origins-i-was-way-off/504333.md?page=2)