# Gendered nouns **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099 "2017-08-08T15:59:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/21 "2017-08-09T17:19:17Z")
> [@](#): > > What if a new word is determined to be more feminine by Spain, but not so much by Mexico? With all of the many Spanish speaking countries there are in the world, has such a situation ever occurred? “Radio” as a means of communication is masculine in some countries (mexico, iirc) and feminine in others. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/22 "2017-08-09T18:17:46Z")
“Radio” is always going to be tricky since it can abbreviate radio-telephone (telephone is itself tricky), radio-telegraphy, and more. I do not even see why it would be masculine or feminine; an even mix across languages of masculine, neuter, and feminine would be expected. It is obviously inanimate, though, where that is a gender (or is it?) Cf “laser” as a benchmark made-up word in most languages — mostly (but not always) masculine ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/23 "2017-08-09T18:54:26Z")
> [@](#): > > It is obviously inanimate, though, where that is a gender (or is it?) It certainly moves and does things. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/24 "2017-08-09T19:19:56Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Only _el váter_ happens to be the toilet… you seem to be mixing German and Spanish bigtime there. It’s not German or Spanish. It’s Nemoan. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/25 "2017-08-09T22:32:43Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Question about languages that use gendered nouns: what actually determines whether a noun is masc, fem or neut? When a new noun enters the language how does it get assigned a gender? Who decides and on what basis? In French, as far as I can tell, common usage decides. And usually, common usage is based on what the word sounds like. If it sounds like words that are feminine (for instance it ends with a sound that is typical of feminine words), it ends up with a feminine gender. And the other way around. People generally have a good feeling of what a new word “gender” "should be. It doesn’t “sounds right” if the “wrong” gender is used. There’s no neuter in French. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/26 "2017-08-10T20:59:18Z")
> [@](#): > > It is obviously inanimate, though, where that is a gender (or is it?) German, among other languages, has masculine, feminine, and neuter. But it is only weakly connected to whether a word represents a living thing or not. For example, young girl, Madchen, is neuter, while bridge, Brucke, is feminine. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/27 "2017-08-10T23:21:10Z")
Yes, German has masculine/feminine/neuter, but I was wondering what gender “radio” (the receiver and/or the waves) takes in the various languages where the genders are animate vs inanimate. I hope someone will tell us as I do not have the relevant dictionaries handy. Same q for “laser”. And other major language families if we are feeling ambitious (Dravidian? Australian? Bantu?) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/28 "2017-08-11T03:14:17Z")
In Spanish, _radio_ is both f and m, for different meanings. Communications: f. Geometry and physics: m. _El radio del círculo_ (the radius of the circle); _el radio es un elemento radiactivo_ (radium is a radioactive element); _baja la radio_ (lower the volume on the radio). Catalan has _radi_ (m) where English has radium or radius and _radio_ (f) where English has radio. Both treat _láser/làser_ as (m). ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/29 "2017-08-23T09:27:15Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > But wouldn’t a female farmer be _bona agricola_? Sometimes a word can be treated as either gender without changing its own forms. _sigh_ sorry to bump this, but I remembered that Latin _does_ have nouns that can be treated as either gender without changing its forms. Example: a female soldier would be _bona miles_, while a male soldier would be _bonus miles_. Similarly _bonus accola, bona accola._ But _agricola_ (always masculine) is not in this class! Of course Latin is not the only language that does this. Why the weirdness? There must be some explanation, but ultimately gender is weird. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/30 "2017-08-23T09:54:59Z")
Thanks for all the replies. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/31 "2017-08-23T23:33:53Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > In French, as far as I can tell, common usage decides. And usually, common usage is based on what the word sounds like. If it sounds like words that are feminine (for instance it ends with a sound that is typical of feminine words), it ends up with a feminine gender. And the other way around. People generally have a good feeling of what a new word “gender” "should be. It doesn’t “sounds right” if the “wrong” gender is used. It depends. For example, as far as I can tell “job” is typically masculine in European dialects of French, and feminine in Canadian dialects of French. There’s really no reason why it should be either, but that’s what usage decided. Interestingly, “gang” in my dialect of French is masculine when referring to criminal groups, but feminine when referring to groups of friends. I think Canadian dialects of French tend to give the feminine gender to new words more commonly than European ones. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/32 "2017-08-24T15:24:21Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > _sigh_ sorry to bump this, but I remembered that Latin _does_ have nouns that can be treated as either gender without changing its forms. Example: a female soldier would be _bona miles_, while a male soldier would be _bonus miles_. Similarly _bonus accola, bona accola._ But _agricola_ (always masculine) is not in this class! > > Of course Latin is not the only language that does this. > > Why the weirdness? There must be some explanation, but ultimately gender is weird. I guess the problem is the word, and making an unusual situation (female soldier) fit the context. Kind of reminds me of the cartoon about the two guys watching TV. “Look - a black Frenchman!” “Black is inappropriate.” “So what do I call him?” “African-American is the proper term.” “But he’s French. African-American-Frenchman?” “Hmmm… that’s not right either…” Sometimes the right words don’t fit. And the cartoon was funnier 25 years ago before all the immigrant problems in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/33 "2017-08-24T16:48:24Z")
Let’s continue the Latin example; I suspect much of this applies to non-Indo-European languages as well. You may (or may not - I don’t know) be right that some occupational nouns (like _nauta_) are masculine because they were historically male. Significantly, that proves that gender is not purely a function of the declension or termination. So some nouns will “sound feminine” or “sound neuter”, while other times classification wins out (rivers and mountains are usually masculine; trees and gems are usually feminine), nor are these independent factors. We also saw that for newly coined words speakers, being immersed in the internal logic of the language, usually have a consistent gut feeling about what the gender should be. (Except when this fails: perhaps French _job_ is masculine like _emploi_, and Canadian _job_ is feminine like _profession_?) Latin also has a few words like _anguis_ with no definite gender. No matter what happened thousands of years ago, there are too many exceptions and by now we have fallen deep into the grammatical rabbit hole. Back to Latin, _miles_ can be female, but _agricola_ definitely cannot. So what if some farmer really is female and we have to talk about her? The only way is to employ a circumlocution like _agricola femina_. Now I need help from native speakers, though; is _bona agricola femina_ then correct? Cf _bona hippopotamus femina_ ?? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/34 "2017-08-24T17:48:06Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > _sigh_ sorry to bump this, but I remembered that Latin _does_ have nouns that can be treated as either gender without changing its forms. Example: a female soldier would be _bona miles_, while a male soldier would be _bonus miles_. Similarly _bonus accola, bona accola._ But _agricola_ (always masculine) is not in this class! > > Of course Latin is not the only language that does this. > > Why the weirdness? There must be some explanation, but ultimately gender is weird. > [@md2000](#): > > I guess the problem is the word, and making an unusual situation (female soldier) fit the context. Yeah, it could be that there is a different word for a female farmer, or even different ones depending on specific tasks\*, or if the word _agricola_ implies ownership of a farm then considering that Roman Law didn’t consider women capable of owning property then it wouldn’t apply. Lots of possible explanations but go and find out which is the right one. - For example, many Spanish-speaking areas used to have _espigadoras_ and _segadores_ working together but on different tasks. The women did the detailed picking (_espiga_ = blade of cereal; by extension, an _espigadora_ is someone who harvests individual items), walking after the men who were doing the big-scale reaping (_segar_ = to reap). ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099/35 "2017-08-24T17:48:10Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Now I need help from native speakers, though; I don’t think anyone here is _that_ old! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gendered-nouns/793099.md?page=1)