# Gene dilution over generations: does Elizabeth II have any of The Conqueror's Genes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 8, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307 "2011-11-08T18:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/21 "2011-11-09T16:36:29Z")
From [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA) : > [@](#): > > Mitochondrial inheritance > In most [multicellular organisms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metazoans), mtDNA is inherited from the mother (maternally inherited). Mechanisms for this include simple dilution (an egg contains 100,000 to 1,000,000 mtDNA molecules, whereas a [sperm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm) contains only 100 to 1000), degradation of sperm mtDNA in the fertilized egg, and, at least in a few organisms, failure of sperm mtDNA to enter the egg. Whatever the mechanism, this single parent (uniparental) pattern of mtDNA inheritance is found in most animals, most plants and in fungi as well. > **[[edit](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mitochondrial_DNA&action=edit§ion=4)] Female inheritance** > > In [sexual reproduction](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_reproduction), mitochondria are normally inherited exclusively from the mother. The mitochondria in mammalian sperm are usually destroyed by the egg cell after fertilization. Also, most mitochondria are present at the base of the sperm’s tail, which is used for propelling the sperm cells. Sometimes the tail is lost during fertilization. In 1999 it was reported that paternal sperm mitochondria (containing mtDNA) are marked with [ubiquitin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubiquitin) to select them for later destruction inside the [embryo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo).[[4]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA#cite_note-3) Some _[in vitro](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro)_ fertilization techniques, particularly injecting a sperm into an [oocyte](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oocyte), may interfere with this. > The fact that mitochondrial DNA is maternally inherited enables researchers to trace [maternal lineage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality) far back in time. > > . . . ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/22 "2011-11-09T16:52:50Z")
> [@](#): > > GK had a harem of thousands of women. His sons also had enormous harems. How big was WtC’s “harem”, and how big were his (4) sons’ “harems”? Not thousands, I’m sure, but still probably several. And even if William and his descendants were having children only at replacement rate, that’d still give you an average of 1 son per generation, and if anyone can be expected to have children at greater than replacement rate, it’d be a king. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/23 "2011-11-09T17:10:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not thousands, I’m sure, but still probably several. And even if William and his descendants were having children only at replacement rate, that’d still give you an average of 1 son per generation, and if anyone can be expected to have children at greater than replacement rate, it’d be a king. Except only 1 of his descendants at a time is king. Most eventually fade into obscurity, like you and me (likely as not to be descendants). At any rate, the two situations are not even close to being comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/24 "2011-11-09T17:30:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How big was WtC’s “harem”, and how big were his (4) sons’ “harems”? **William I** - no known illegitimate children. Illegitimate himself he may have personal reasons to avoid having them. Four legitimate sons, five daughters. **Robert Curthose** - eldest son of William. One legitimate son, two known bastards. **Richard** - second son of William, died in twenties unmarried. No known descendants, but who knows - he was certainly old enough to produce some before he died. **William II Rufus** - died unmarried. Highly likely was at least bisexual ( apparently not uncommon situationally among the younger Norman nobility ). No known descendants, but again at such a remove anything is possible. **Henry I** - unrepentant horndog. Two legitimate children, at best guess ~35 bastards. If you’re looking for ground zero for Norman royal genes, he’s your best bet ;). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/25 "2011-11-09T17:35:47Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > \*\ ***Henry I** - unrepentant horndog. Two legitimate children, at best guess ~35 bastards. If you’re looking for ground zero for Norman royal genes, he’s your best bet ;). Why don’t we all just cal him great-great…great granddad and call it day! ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/26 "2011-11-09T17:40:04Z")
While it’s unlikely that she shares genes, it _is_ likely that she shares [breaths](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=112794). Statistics and probability theory are pretty awesome. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/27 "2011-11-09T17:47:28Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Quick search shows about 25,000 human genes, so, surprisingly if my math is correct, it’s about a 50/50 chance ERII inherited a gene from WtC directly. [This assumes no mutations, no sex-related genes or chromosomes, and no selection for genes along the way. All clearly wrong assumptions, of course] While I applaud you for taking the time to do actual math, I do wonder about treating things on the single gene level. In my highschool biology, discussing Mitosis and Meiosis, the whole DNA-strand always coiled up into the chromosomes, and those were then divided (more or less by chance) so that each egg/ sperm has half of the parents chromosomes. Each chromosome is a coiled DNA-strand with thousands of genes on them. So wouldn’t a person inherit whole chromosome from their dad or nothing, not a single gene? (True, that would be difficult to follow - Do we even have a full known family tree from William to Elizabeth?) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/28 "2011-11-09T17:54:00Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Do we even have a full known family tree from William to Elizabeth?) Which is a great question. Is ERII even a known direct descendant of WtC? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/29 "2011-11-09T18:41:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Which is a great question. Is ERII even a known direct descendant of WtC? I was considering going through the painful process of trying to trace it out, but apparently these days there is a wiki for [almost everything](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_of_Elizabeth_II_from_William_I) ;). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/30 "2011-11-09T19:01:05Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I was considering going through the painful process of trying to trace it out, but apparently these days there is a wiki for [almost everything](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_of_Elizabeth_II_from_William_I) ;). That also clears up the number of generations: 25. Much less than we would think if we assumed 1 generation = 25 years, giving us 40 generations. Although we are assuming 1,000 years, too, which is slightly off. Still, longer average generation than typical, but it makes sense since the male line is favored and there were intervening uncles in there as well. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/31 "2011-11-09T19:33:58Z")
Here is an interesting discussion about how likely that someone is you cousin. [http://ideas.4brad.com/everybody-your-16th-cousin](http://ideas.4brad.com/everybody-your-16th-cousin) ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/32 "2011-11-09T20:25:57Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Each chromosome is a coiled DNA-strand with thousands of genes on them. So wouldn’t a person inherit whole chromosome from their dad or nothing, not a single gene? You’re forgetting about recombination, which means chromosomes are inherited as more or less random chunks rather than as a whole. Over several generations, Person X’s chromosomes will be taken apart and mixed up with other chromosomes to the point that you really can’t say that that chromosome exists. Tracking at the gene level is more realistic at this sort of time scale, but even individual genes can be recombined and go through the same process. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/33 "2011-11-09T20:43:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Except only 1 of his descendants at a time is king. Most eventually fade into obscurity, like you and me (likely as not to be descendants). But you only need one many-progeny generation (like Henry I’s children) to insulate the line from the sorts of statistical fluctuations that could wipe it out. Once you have that, it’s fine for all the rest of the descendants to be be perfectly ordinary in their reproductive proclivities. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/34 "2011-11-09T21:20:06Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > I recall reading that the population 1000 years ago can be neatly divided into two categories: > > [ol] > [li](about 20%) people who left no descendants today.[/li][li](about 80%) people who are ancestors of all people living today.[/li][/ol] > With very, very few people in the category of “people who are ancestors of some, but not all, people living today”. WtC is likely to be in the latter category, at least for the British, meaning “better chance than winning the lottery” is an understatement. There is no one from 1000 years ago who is an ancestor of all living people today. To get there you’d have to go back before the first Homo Sapiens left Africa. [Map of Human Migrations](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/teachers/lessonplans/science/genetic_ancestry_all_in_one.pdf) There are groups in New Zealand, for instance which have never been genetically mixed. There are groups in Brasil which haven’t even been contacted. It’s just ridiculous. It completely ignores geographic separation. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/35 "2011-11-09T22:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > There are groups in New Zealand, for instance which have never been genetically mixed. There are groups in Brasil which haven’t even been contacted. Just because they’ve never mixed directly with Westerners doesn’t mean there’s no gene flow. The “isolated” tribe will still have some contact with their neighbors, including interbreeding, and those neighbors will have contact with their neighbors, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/36 "2011-11-09T22:28:40Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > There is no one from 1000 years ago who is an ancestor of all living people today. To get there you’d have to go back before the first Homo Sapiens left Africa. [Map of Human Migrations](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/teachers/lessonplans/science/genetic_ancestry_all_in_one.pdf) > > There are groups in New Zealand, for instance which have never been genetically mixed. There are groups in Brasil which haven’t even been contacted. It’s just ridiculous. It completely ignores geographic separation. We’ve been over this in many other threads. The [identical ancestor point](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_ancestors_point) is 5k - 15k years ago. That is the point where everyone alive is either the ancestor of no one or the ancestor of everyone alive today. The [Most Recent Common Ancestor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor) lived 2k - 5k years ago. There are no populations in New Zealand that have not mixed. And it doesn’t matter if some group in Brazil was not contacted. They mated with villages that have been contacted. 500 years is a long, long time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/37 "2011-11-09T23:06:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But you only need one many-progeny generation (like Henry I’s children) to insulate the line from the sorts of statistical fluctuations that could wipe it out. Once you have that, it’s fine for all the rest of the descendants to be be perfectly ordinary in their reproductive proclivities. Well, I don’t know how many progeny are needed to “insulate” the line, and we only have a guess at the number of children H I had, but we’re wandering into the realm of speculation, so I’m going to let it drop. ---
**Author:** ![Baffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@Baffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baffle)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/38 "2011-11-10T06:23:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Just because they’ve never mixed directly with Westerners doesn’t mean there’s no gene flow. The “isolated” tribe will still have some contact with their neighbors, including interbreeding, and those neighbors will have contact with their neighbors, and so on. There doesn’t even need to be gene flow. All that’s really needed is for one conquistador’s great^6 grandchild to be a common ancestor to that isolated tribe. It’s not implausible for that theoretical person (who would, in all likelihood, be completely genetically indistinguishable from any other South American native) to be a common ancestor to even the most remote tribe, and that tribe would all be descended from Europeans. And they may not have a single one of his genes today. Are there any decent hypotheses about where humanity’s MRCA may have lived? I ask because **John Mace** linked to a Wiki article that quotes, “we share ancestors who planted rice on the banks of the Yangtze, who first domesticated horses on the steppes of the Ukraine, who hunted giant sloths in the forests of North and South America, and who labored to build the Great Pyramid of Khufu.” I frankly doubt the possibility that everyone alive today has an ancestor who lived in North America 10,000 years ago, because I don’t know of any post-land-bridge contact with the Old World until the Vikings, and even 1000 years seems too short for a large amount of intermixing with the populations of the entire world. I’m trying to imagine a scenario where the Vikings brought a Beothuk to Iceland, whose descendants made it back to Norway, then through Eurasia, and ended up among the Sentinelese, and it’s just not working. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/39 "2011-11-10T06:54:52Z")
I’m confused. Isn’t the operative number 46 for the number of chromosomes and not the number of genes? So after 7 generations there is 46/128 \< 0.5 chance they share a common chromosome? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307/40 "2011-11-10T07:34:43Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > You’re forgetting about recombination, which means chromosomes are inherited as more or less random chunks rather than as a whole. Over several generations, Person X’s chromosomes will be taken apart and mixed up with other chromosomes to the point that you really can’t say that that chromosome exists. Tracking at the gene level is more realistic at this sort of time scale, but even individual genes can be recombined and go through the same process. I wondered if I should mention recombination (where parts of the chromosome break off and are combined differently), but my impression was that it was rare and not part of the normal Mitosis/ meiosis process. Is it in fact common enough to be assumed for every generation? Are some people more likely for it? Is it a factor of the age of parents when they reproduce? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gene-dilution-over-generations-does-elizabeth-ii-have-any-of-the-conquerors-genes/602307.md?page=3)