# General Abizaid: U.S. might keep its "enduring bases" in Iraq indefinitely **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664 "2006-03-16T22:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/1 "2006-03-16T22:28:13Z")
From [http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/12459655-B62F-4135-A05B-A04B52821F46.htm:](http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/12459655-B62F-4135-A05B-A04B52821F46.htm:) > [@](#): > > **Deterring Iran** > > Abizaid cited the need to fight al-Qaida and other extremists groups and “the need to be able to deter ambitions of an expansionistic Iran” as potential reasons to keep some level of troops in the region in the long term. > > But he said it would be far less than the 200,000 currently deployed in the region, including 132,000 in Iraq. > > “Clearly our long-term vision for a military presence in the region requires a robust counter-terrorist capability,” Abizaid said. > > “No doubt there is a need for some presence in the region over time primarily to help people help themselves through this period of extremists versus moderates.” > > **Vital interest** > > Abizaid also said the United States and its allies have a vital interest in the oil-rich region. > > “Ultimately it comes down to the free flow of goods and resources on which the prosperity of our own nation and everybody else in the world depend,” he said. I think this is a very bad idea, for several reasons: 1. This situation is nothing like post-WWII West Germany, where the Cold War justified maintaining long-standing U.S. military bases. So long as we continue to have **any** military presence in Iraq, the people will see us as occupiers. They will not see us as “defending” them against the Iranians, nor against the insurgents. They hate and fear us much, much worse than they do the Iranians or the insurgents. 2. U.S. military bases will be targets for insurgents and terrorists. That will **never** change so long as there are U.S. troops in the bases. 3. Even having built the bases in the first place sends a strong message that we’re settling in for a long stay. 4. Or, worse, that we’re planning to use Iraq as a staging ground to attack Iran or Syria. We should set a definite timetable for withdrawal and it should include a promise to hand all U.S. military bases in Iraq over to the Iraqi government. ---
**Author:** ![Gladstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90db22/32.png) [@Gladstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gladstone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/2 "2006-03-17T00:07:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I think this is a very bad idea, for several reasons: > > 1. This situation is nothing like post-WWII West Germany, where the Cold War justified maintaining long-standing U.S. military bases. So long as we continue to have **any** military presence in Iraq, the people will see us as occupiers. They will not see us as “defending” them against the Iranians, nor against the insurgents. At least concerning the Iranians, doesn’t the U.S. have a responsibility to Iraq to defend them from Iran as the Iraqi military is slowly rebuilt in order to deter any Iranian desires to intervene and protect Iraqi Shiites? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/3 "2006-03-17T00:16:47Z")
> [@Gladstone](#): > > At least concerning the Iranians, doesn’t the U.S. have a responsibility to Iraq to defend them from Iran as the Iraqi military is slowly rebuilt in order to deter any Iranian desires to intervene and protect Iraqi Shiites? I think the question is that once the Iraqi military is rebuilt, should the US continue to have a presence there in the form of permanant military bases? General Abizaid seems to be hinting that that is indeed what the US plans to do. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/4 "2006-03-17T00:28:06Z")
> [@Gladstone](#): > > At least concerning the Iranians, doesn’t the U.S. have a responsibility to Iraq to defend them from Iran as the Iraqi military is slowly rebuilt in order to deter any Iranian desires to intervene and protect Iraqi Shiites? You could use the same logic to claim the Iranians have a responsibility to invade to protect the Iraqis from us ( if they could ). ---
**Author:** ![Gladstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90db22/32.png) [@Gladstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gladstone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/5 "2006-03-17T01:17:33Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > I think the question is that once the Iraqi military is rebuilt, should the US continue to have a presence there in the form of permanant military bases? General Abizaid seems to be hinting that that is indeed what the US plans to do. One of the key questions is when will the Iraqi military _be_ rebuilt? They have quantity, but at least according to DoD reports and the like, not the quality. Will this “quality” issue be used as a further justification for a permanent US presence? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/6 "2006-03-17T01:28:26Z")
> [@Gladstone](#): > > At least concerning the Iranians, doesn’t the U.S. have a responsibility to Iraq to defend them from Iran as the Iraqi military is slowly rebuilt in order to deter any Iranian desires to intervene and protect Iraqi Shiites? At this point, I think most Iraqis would prefer an Iranian military presence to an American military presence. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/7 "2006-03-17T01:31:14Z")
Lol, I know the administration originally billed Iraq as a short trip to liberation and then we’re outa here, but did anyone seriously ever think we WEREN’T going to end up with permanent bases in Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/8 "2006-03-17T01:39:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > At this point, I think most Iraqis would prefer an Iranian military presence to an American military presence. I’m not sure about that. I doubt that any Sunni Arab or Kurd wants that, and that’s 40% right there. All you need is 11% of the Shi’a, and that’s a majority. But let’s say they do. The grass is always greener. Give them 6 months and they’d be crying for the Amrericans to come back (assuming they had to one or the other). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/9 "2006-03-17T01:41:57Z")
Oops. I get a D for math on that one. ~18% of the Shi’a would give you another 11% of the total population. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/10 "2006-03-17T01:42:24Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m not sure about that. I doubt that any Sunni Arab or Kurd wants that, and that’s 40% right there. All you need is 11% of the Shi’a, and that’s a majority. > > But let’s say they do. The grass is always greener. Give them 6 months and they’d be crying for the Amrericans to come back (assuming they had to one or the other). So what? Let Iraq be **Iran’s** Vietnam! It’ll do more to destablize their mullahcracy then a fleet of American bomber planes ever could! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/11 "2006-03-17T01:48:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So what? Let Iraq be **Iran’s** Vietnam! It’ll do more to destablize their mullahcracy then a fleet of American bomber planes ever could! Well, that wasn’t what you were talking about. I don’t want Iraq to be anyone’s Vietnam. I don’t even want Iraq to be Vietnam’s Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/12 "2006-03-17T01:55:09Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Well, that wasn’t what you were talking about. I don’t want Iraq to be anyone’s Vietnam. I don’t even want Iraq to be Vietnam’s Vietnam. Well, the Iranians might or might not want to consider actual military intervention. If they’re smart, they won’t. Diplomacy and money can get them whatever they want. My point is, we should not be concerned with keeping the Iranians out of Iraq. Not for the Iraqis’ sake, not for our own. That isn’t a good reason to maintain U.S. bases there. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/13 "2006-03-17T02:17:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, the Iranians might or might not want to consider actual military intervention. If they’re smart, they won’t. Diplomacy and money can get them whatever they want. But so can war. And war will only cost them the lives of their citizens (and Iraq’s citizens). Plus, the Iranians would likely have an easier time of keeping the peace since a) they’re not as worried as us about humanitarian concerns or winning the hearts and minds; and b) they’re not infidels, meaning they’re less likely to be attacked by religious extremists/terrorists. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > My point is, we should not be concerned with keeping the Iranians out of Iraq. Not for the Iraqis’ sake, not for our own. That isn’t a good reason to maintain U.S. bases there. What about the reason Gen. Abizaid set out? Let’s face it – the hottest region in the world right now is the Middle East, and it behooves us to have troops and supplies in the region to act quickly. [I think that’s the first time I’ve ever used the word “behoove” in a sentence.] I think that’s a good reason to maintain troops there. Add in the fact that we should get our troops out of Saudi Arabia for a number of reasons – including the removing our troops from the Holy Land, and stepping down our reliance on the Saudis – and add in the fact that Iraq is a strategically important area within the Middle East, and I think it might be in our interests to have troops in Iraq. Of course, this might all be a moot point if the Iraqis do hate us as much as you suggest. Because if they do, they’re probably not going to invite us to stay. And if I remember correctly, our promise was to leave when and if the Iraqis asked us to. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/14 "2006-03-17T02:30:54Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Of course, this might all be a moot point if the Iraqis do hate us as much as you suggest. Because if they do, they’re probably not going to invite us to stay. And if I remember correctly, our promise was to leave when and if the Iraqis asked us to. And if America was at all honorable or trustworthy or even cared about it’s image, that might actually matter. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/15 "2006-03-17T02:33:53Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Let’s face it – the hottest region in the world right now is the Middle East . . . Perfectly true. (And our presence ain’t coolin’ things down any.) > [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > . . . and it behooves us to have troops and supplies in the region to act quickly. But how does that follow from the above? If things heat up even more, why would we (the U.S.) need to “act quickly”? Why would we need to act **at all?** > [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Add in the fact that we should get our troops out of Saudi Arabia for a number of reasons . . . How many have we still got there? > [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > And if I remember correctly, our promise was to leave when and if the Iraqis asked us to. 😛😛😛 Oh, that’s so **cute!** ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/16 "2006-03-17T03:07:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But how does that follow from the above? If things heat up even more, why would we (the U.S.) need to “act quickly”? Why would we need to act **at all?** Because isolationism is an unrealistic foreign policy. Things that happen in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and Palestine effect us. Ignoring the problems in the Middle East – one of the most strategically vital regions in the world – won’t make them go away, and certainly won’t make them any better. And we’re better able to protect our own interests than anyone else in the world. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How many have we still got there? Other than troops at embassies and the like, I believe the number is zero. From the [Dept. of State’s page on Saudi Arabia](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3584.htm): > [@](#): > > In August 2003, following the U.S.-led war in Iraq in March and April 2003, the United States withdrew its troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😛😛😛 Oh, that’s so **cute!** I’m not following you here. Are you suggesting that we didn’t mean it? That we’re staying whether they want us to or not? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/17 "2006-03-17T03:17:35Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Because isolationism is an unrealistic foreign policy. Things that happen in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and Palestine effect us. Ignoring the problems in the Middle East – one of the most strategically vital regions in the world – won’t make them go away, and certainly won’t make them any better. Perhaps not, but, based on recent experience, having U.S. troops there won’t make things any better either – for them or for us. **Quite the reverse.** > [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > I’m not following you here. Are you suggesting that we didn’t mean it? That we’re staying whether they want us to or not? Well . . . yeah . . . As to who “they” might be . . . Obviously some (many) Iraqis want us to leave, and are making their feelings known. Violently. The government hasn’t asked us to leave yet . . . but I suggest it does not, really, have the freedom of action one would expect of a sovereign government. As it will find out if it ever proposes kicking Halliburton out of Iraq’s oilfields, or nullifying the reconstruction contracts granted to U.S. and British companies by the CPA. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/18 "2006-03-17T03:21:13Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Because isolationism is an unrealistic foreign policy. Things that happen in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and Palestine effect us. Ignoring the problems in the Middle East – one of the most strategically vital regions in the world – won’t make them go away, and certainly won’t make them any better. And we’re better able to protect our own interests than anyone else in the world. Also . . . Just because we have an **interest** in intervening in another country’s problems, doesn’t mean we have the **right** – does it? I mean, the Middle Easterners have just as much right to fuck things up in their own way, as they would have if there were no oil there, or no global demand for it. Necessity on our part does not constitute any obligation on their part. Do you care to argue the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/19 "2006-03-17T03:35:20Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Are you suggesting that we didn’t mean it? That we’re staying whether they want us to or not? Of course we didn’t mean it. One lesson shines clear in history : _Never trust America_ ! We stole Iraq, and intend to keep it. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664/20 "2006-03-17T15:37:23Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > We stole Iraq, and intend to keep it. Not quite right. We intend to keep enough of it to allow us to act decisively in the region if the people in charge feel that action is necessary - for example, if an Iraqi government that isn’t a US puppet comes to power. You want me to leave your house? Sure. \ Just give me a minute to gather up my stuff… -Joe [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-abizaid-u-s-might-keep-its-enduring-bases-in-iraq-indefinitely/348664.md?page=2)