# General aviation folk: talk me down... **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 13, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666 "2014-01-13T16:07:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/101 "2014-06-13T21:05:27Z")
> [@HipGnosis](#): > > Your fear is irrational. > It’s like him asking you to quit riding because a horse you bought had thrown a shoe when a previous owner rode it in an irresponsible way. > Totally irrational. > You really need to consider therapy kinda irrational. Ummm, you apparently haven’t read the whole thread… ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/102 "2014-06-13T21:11:44Z")
Not to mention that crashing a 50 year old plane through a fence and then getting it airworthy again in no way compares to a horse losing a shoe. Nice try though. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/103 "2014-06-13T21:18:02Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yeah, my pipe dream is to buy dad’s airplane and have it restored. Last time I saw it, it wasn’t airworthy, and the owner never answered my letters. Assuming he’s got it flying in the last dozen years, it might cost $30,000 or so. New paint would be over $10,000 I’m sure, plus upholstery, plus interior plastic, plus wingtips and stab tips. New plexiglass is probably in order. It would be nice to swap out the 150 hp engine for a zero-time 180 hp one… It would probably cost $80,000 or more, and I’d wind up with a $50,000 or maybe $60,000 airplane. As it happens, there’s a school in this state that has an already-restored C172K. It would make more sense to buy that one. (Of course if I had what I would consider a sufficient surplus spondlix to buy it, it wouldn’t matter.) Good lord. We’re nowhere near those numbers (thank gawd), but I think your plane is a good bit bigger than my husbands…? (Googling…) Yep. I think that’s probably one of the rentals that he flies, I seem to recall references to “the 172”. I suspect that may be in our future, he tends to collect things he’s interested in… sigh… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/104 "2014-06-13T21:24:41Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Good lord. We’re nowhere near those numbers (thank gawd), but I think your plane is a good bit bigger than my husbands…? They’re of about the same size and performance, and they both have four seats. The Skyhawk has a longer wingspan by about six feet, though. Sadly, it’s not my plane. Used to be dad’s. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/105 "2014-06-13T21:35:35Z")
Hunh, I thought his Tri Pacer was only a 2-seater. Oh wait, maybe that’s one of the rentals he flies. I dunno, they all look pretty much the same to me! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/106 "2014-06-13T22:40:51Z")
The Colt looks a lot like the Tri-Pacer but has only 2 seats. Maybe that’s it? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/107 "2014-06-13T23:29:40Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Hunh, I thought his Tri Pacer was only a 2-seater. Oh wait, maybe that’s one of the rentals he flies. I dunno, they all look pretty much the same to me! 😛 [Here is a picture](https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8484/8253056509_27444c4538_z.jpg) where you can see front seats and back seats. [And another one](http://www.aircraftexchangenetwork.com/listman/listings/images/83_6.jpg) from a different airplane and angle. Here’s a shot of the [back seat](http://www.aircraftexchangenetwork.com/listman/listings/images/83_7.jpg). It’s not unusual for rear seats to be removed. Someone might want more floor space for cargo; or a given airplane might not have an excess of power, so the seats might be removed to save weight since more than one passenger isn’t going to be carried anyway. Or maybe they just don’t want rear seats. So your airplane may very well be a two-seater; but the PA-20 Tri-Pacer is usually four-place. I can’t tell you how envious I am. I know I said the Tri-Pacer looks like a flying milk stool, but I certainly wouldn’t turn one down. I’d get lots of attention in it, too. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/108 "2014-06-14T01:29:37Z")
The rear seat in low-power planes (all rag and tube Pipers, the Cessna 170/172/177) are there because Marketing finds it MUCH easier to sell a “4 Place Plane!”. It has nothing to do with the actual capacity. Don’t know if the rule is the same, but everything built until 1996 in the US used 170 pounds as the weight of a human. Even if you have 4 skinny people, (4 \* 170) for people and (6 \* gallon for fuel) and you get over max weight real easy. Remember the 7 yr old “flying” across the country? That was a Cessna 177. 2 large males, one child and over a 100# of gear, taking off into a squall. The widow: “How could it be over-loaded? That was a 4-person plane, and there were only 3 people”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/109 "2014-08-18T04:24:40Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > The rear seat in low-power planes (all rag and tube Pipers, the Cessna 170/172/177) are there because Marketing finds it MUCH easier to sell a “4 Place Plane!”. > It has nothing to do with the actual capacity. > > Don’t know if the rule is the same, but everything built until 1996 in the US used 170 pounds as the weight of a human. > Even if you have 4 skinny people, (4 \* 170) for people and (6 \* gallon for fuel) and you get over max weight real easy. The maximum useful load for a 1978 172N Skyhawk is [907 pounds](http://alameda-aero.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Cessna172NPOH.pdf). It carries 40 gallons of usable fuel, so there’s 240 pounds with full tanks. That’s _almost_ four 170 pound adults. Realistically, I’d guess the Standard American Male is around 200 pounds, and a woman might be… Let’s say 120 pounds. Two of each would be under the weight limit with full fuel. (Of course, a Skyhawk II carries less, and differing equipment will yield differing useful loads. Also, I’ve made no accommodation for baggage.) IMO a 150 hp four seater is intended for a ‘young family’. That is, a couple of average adults – one male, one female – and a couple of kids in their teens or younger. Based on the old business plan, the young family would buy a 150 hp four-seater and then move up to a 180 hp to 235 hp plane as they made more money and the kids grew. Personally, I think a Skyhawk makes a swell three-seater. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/110 "2014-08-18T06:01:25Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > :::: snip :::: > It’s not unusual for rear seats to be removed. Someone might want more floor space for cargo; or a given airplane might not have an excess of power, so the seats might be removed to save weight since more than one passenger isn’t going to be carried anyway. Or maybe they just don’t want rear seats. So your airplane may very well be a two-seater; but the PA-20 Tri-Pacer is usually four-place. > . Piper Colt, 2 place, note lack of extra window that the Tri-Pacer has. 108 Lycomings in the ones I was around [![](https://www.pilot-planes.com/images/PiperColt2.jpg) ](https://www.pilot-planes.com/images/PiperColt2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/111 "2014-08-18T13:35:08Z")
The OP says Tri-Pacer. (In your quote, I said PA-20 [Pacer]. I meant PA-22.) ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/112 "2014-08-18T18:43:15Z")
I misread some how & thought you were implying that there were no deliberately built 2 place planes of that style that you knew of. Wasn’t looking to contradict you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/113 "2014-08-19T01:48:56Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Hunh, I thought his Tri Pacer was only a 2-seater. Oh wait, maybe that’s one of the rentals he flies. I dunno, they all look pretty much the same to me! 😛 If it had flaps it was a Tri-Pacer. Of course it’s about useless so you may have flown in it and it was never used. The paint scheme of the Colt creates the allusion of a rear window. The only difference in the nose is an extra outlet on the Tri-Pacer for the oil cooler and a longer spinner. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/114 "2015-09-18T01:47:20Z")
I was just [reminded](http://www.ebay.com/itm/1953-Piper-Tri-Pacer-PA22-150-Single-Engine-Aircraft-/221889254448) of Tri-Pacers. Any update? How’s the flying? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/115 "2015-09-18T01:58:48Z")
Oh hey! Forgot about this 🙂 When he can get the thing in the air he’s in 7th Heaven. Getting it truly airworthy and getting the FAA to sign off on it was a giant PITA, but he got it done, and now it’s just been tweaks here and there. Something about the propeller needing to be re-angled? I think? And then the nose strut kept losing pressure so that had to be fixed. And a few minor engine maintenance type things. But in between he’s loving it, when the weather and work cooperate of course. And I think now that the weather’s cooling off and it won’t be 110 in the hangar he’ll be back to hanging out there breathing fumes and just puttering, even if the weather’s not flyable. It still scares me to death, but I’m really happy he’s so happy 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/116 "2015-09-19T03:54:56Z")
Have you gone up with him? ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/117 "2015-09-19T13:04:40Z")
Nope. I get the heebie jeebies just sitting in it in the ground, it’s too small. I also get motion sick really easily (like I can get queasy driving myself if the road is twisty enough), so while I’m happy he’s enjoying it so and I’ll listen to endless tales that I mostly don’t understand, I have no desire to go up in it. I’ll just sit here on the ground and wave up at him 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/118 "2015-09-19T19:36:39Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Despite your proneness to motion sickness you still might benefit from a “pinch-hitter’s” class. That’s where the (usually) spouse of a pilot spends a weekend with a little ground school and some actual flight time. The purpose isn’t to make you a pilot, it’s to acquaint you with flying and how to deal with in-flight emergencies up to and including landing an airplane when the pilot is incapacitated. It would probably do a great deal to reassure you about such things and the resources a pilot has to deal with problems. I’ll ditto this, and let’s be practical - tell hubby your concerns about the big pile of bills and have him get some more insurance. Actually, scratch the “some”. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/119 "2015-09-19T19:59:42Z")
A person who is not at all interested in flight and subject to motion sickness is not going to make a good safety pilot (which is the idea behind the ‘Pinch Hitter’ training). If she is never going to up, she will never be in a position to land the thing when hubby has a massive heart attack and dies at the stick/yoke. Note how often a ‘pinch hitter’ actually performs the envisioned role. A huge sack of dead meat leaning against the stick is going to make flying rather difficult - by the time you get it out of the way, the ground has found you. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666/120 "2015-09-19T20:07:35Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > A person who is not at all interested in flight… I really, _really_ want non-pilots to experience the joy of flight. I’ll encourage people who are fearful of flying to go up and see what it’s like, to help them get over their fear. But once someone makes it clear that they have _zero_ interest (whether through fear, or that they just don’t give a hoot), there’s no point in cajoling. [If I had a plane] the offer is always there, should they change their minds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-aviation-folk-talk-me-down/678666.md?page=7)