# General Vo Nguyen Giap has died **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 4, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351 "2013-10-04T13:55:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/1 "2013-10-04T13:55:42Z")
> **[Vietnam's General Vo Nguyen Giap dies](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24402278)** > > Vo Nguyen Giap, Vietnam's legendary general who masterminded victories against France and the US, has died aged 102. He was 102. Call me a commie, but I think he was a pretty remarkable leader. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/2 "2013-10-04T15:19:03Z")
Commie! He’s usually considered one of the most brilliant generals of the 20th Century though. It’s also pretty remarkable that the man led the defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu almost 60 years ago was still alive until today. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/3 "2013-10-04T16:14:46Z")
I had no idea he was still alive. Interestingly, my BiL’s grandfather, a veteran of Dien Bien Phu, passed away a few months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/4 "2013-10-04T16:23:05Z")
Called the Red Napoleon. RIP. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/5 "2013-10-04T17:19:48Z")
Interesting man-a school teacher who became a general. He won battles because he learned from his mistakes, and wasn’t slave to some military doctrine. the fact that he was not a graduate of a military academy probably helped him avoid his opponent’s mistakes. Of course, he was helped by his opponent’s constraints-the (French) general Navarre was the victim of his belief 9in the superiority of his troops), even as he was being surrounded at Bien Dien Phu. Westmoreland thought he could win by brute force. Giap played to his own strengths, and refused battle when the advantage was not on his side. ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/6 "2013-10-04T17:50:02Z")
One hell of a general. I read somewhere that Westmoreland’s strategy was like Chess and Giap’s was more like Go. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/7 "2013-10-04T18:13:56Z")
Among his other achievements, Giap lasted until the 13th Round in the prestigious [Straight Dope Greatest Military Leader Elimination Game](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12917866&postcount=212). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/8 "2013-10-05T00:09:16Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Westmoreland thought he could win by brute force. Giap played to his own strengths. Actually Westmoreland later on was critical of Giap for not caring about incurring excessive casualties for little or no gain and said that any commander in a Western army who took such losses so fast and consistently would be sacked. Thing is, that was exactly part of the problem: avoiding “excessive causalties” was something an \*American \*commander had to worry about. Not those on the other side. While Giap did defeat the French on the battlefield he never could quite do that with the Americans, true, but he and the other Hanoi commanders knew what by necessity had to be their adjusted mission in the face of US intervention: deny an easy victory and hold on and be there standing strong until a _political_ resolution could be extracted. And that they did. What they got was the best they could hope for: eventually the Americans disengaged, and they could then move to overrun RVN. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/9 "2013-10-05T03:23:59Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Actually Westmoreland later on was critical of Giap for not caring about incurring excessive casualties for little or no gain and said that any commander in a Western army who took such losses so fast and consistently would be sacked. Eh, Grant? :rolleyes: Losers should not be critical of victors. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/10 "2013-10-05T14:27:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I had no idea he was still alive. > > Interestingly, my BiL’s grandfather, a veteran of Dien Bien Phu, passed away a few months ago. A few months back I was thinking of starting a thread “People you are amazed are alive” and Giap would have been my entry. Now I guess I will have to think of someone else. Castro is a possibility though he is perhaps too famous. His longevity is rather ironic though given the number of attempts on his life. He has outlived five US presidents who came to power after he did. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/11 "2013-10-05T14:34:35Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Among his other achievements, Giap lasted until the 13th Round in the prestigious [Straight Dope Greatest Military Leader Elimination Game](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12917866&postcount=212). I was wondering if Giap was the greatest general of the second half of the 20th century and looking at that list when he was voted out the SD appears to think so. Admittedly not the greatest half-century in the history of war but hey not bad for a school teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/12 "2013-10-05T15:17:20Z")
Coincedentally I was looking at this book which I have in my collection the other day and contemplating reading it, Giap: The Victor In Vietnam by Peter MacDonald. It has a rather good photo of him on the cover. [http://media.tinngan.vn:6060/archive/images/content/2013/08/22/shares/195352\_vonguyengiap4.jpg](http://media.tinngan.vn:6060/archive/images/content/2013/08/22/shares/195352_vonguyengiap4.jpg) I didn’t realise that he was still alive at that time. Guess I’ll take it down and brush it off in his honour, no matter what you think of his politics he was extremely good at what he did and deserves respect for what he achieved. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/13 "2013-10-05T18:08:18Z")
Giap probably had nothing to do with the Tet Offensive. By all accounts he felt it was stupid, and he went to the trouble of not even being in the country when it was carried out. Whether he was right or not is still a matter of debate. His concerns proved true - the casualties were horrific and no permanent advantage was gained. But it was a political victory all the same. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/14 "2013-10-06T02:14:39Z")
There’s an old Urban Legend that he pinned the US defeat on American anti-war reporting, [but it’s not true](http://www.snopes.com/quotes/giap.asp). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/15 "2013-10-06T04:09:54Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > A few months back I was thinking of starting a thread “People you are amazed are alive” and Giap would have been my entry. Now I guess I will have to think of someone else. Luise Rainer. Won back-to-back Oscars for Best Actress in 1936 and 1937. Still alive in 2013. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/16 "2013-10-06T04:25:17Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Giap probably had nothing to do with the Tet Offensive. By all accounts he felt it was stupid, and he went to the trouble of not even being in the country when it was carried out. > > Whether he was right or not is still a matter of debate. His concerns proved true - the casualties were horrific and no permanent advantage was gained. But it was a political victory all the same. Its failure is arguable. I’ve always been of the belief that the high casualties were secretly part of the plan. Keep in mind the communist forces in the Vietnam War were not a monolith. There was the People’s Army of Vietnam, the regular military of the Hanoi government, and the Viet Cong, a guerrilla force based in the south. They both were trying to overthrow the Saigon government but the Hanoi government must have been looking ahead to the post-war future. By 1968, Hanoi must have been getting confident they were going to win the war eventually and occupy the south. And they must have been asking themselves if they really wanted to have an active underground organization in what would then be their territory. History gave ample evidence that separate communist groups often turned into bitter rivals. So “coincidentally” a new operation was planned - an uprising throughout the south where the Viet Cong would come out into the open and fight the American and South Vietnamese military directly. The planners must have known that guerrilla forces are designed for hit-and-run tactics not open battles. And the Tet Offensive proved this - the Viet Cong achieved early successes but were crushed as the military forces regrouped. The result? The Americans and South Vietnamese suffered a political defeat. The Viet Cong were generally used up. And the PAVN as now unchallenged as the dominant arm of the anti-communist movement. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/17 "2013-10-06T17:36:40Z")
The fact remains…Giap was in the game to win. Westmoreland was in the game to follow Lyndon Johnson’s insane ideas about how to fight a war. Johnson thought that he could bully the Vietnamese into signing a peace treaty-just like he bullied people in the US Senate…however, it didn’t work. Johnson’s limited war neither resulted in victory or mollified Washington. It was a disaster, with lots of dead American kids. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/18 "2013-10-07T09:28:34Z")
Named by Time Magazine as one of the three deadliest generals of the 20th century (the other two were Montgomery and Le May.) ---
**Author:** ![Zyanthia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Zyanthia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyanthia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/19 "2013-10-07T14:58:26Z")
I had never heard of this man so I Googled him. Turns out he’s rated as the #5 general of all time according to the [Top Tens](http://www.thetoptens.com/top-military-generals/). ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351/20 "2013-10-07T15:54:59Z")
> [@Zyanthia](#): > > I had never heard of this man so I Googled him. > > Turns out he’s rated as the #5 general of all time according to the [Top Tens](http://www.thetoptens.com/top-military-generals/). Wow. Giap isn’t even the best-rated Vietnamese general in that Top Ten. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-vo-nguyen-giap-has-died/670351.md?page=2)