# General who opened Guantanamo prison says, shut it down! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251 "2013-12-13T16:51:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/41 "2013-12-21T16:17:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Unfortunately, you have just in your own example of why torture does not provide good information. Over here, you know that the torturee has the information you want and you have a way of verifying its veracity forthwith.In real life with terrorists and even regular police work, this is not the case. Usually, the interrogators have no certainty of the knowledge the guy has and no immediate ways of verifying it. “Usually”, but torture is an extreme measure, if it should ever be used it certainly wouldn’t be used in normal circumstances. For example if you’ve captured a lot of enemy naval officers and you’re the Japanese, you might torture them for information about upcoming operations. Ship captains usually have somewhat detailed knowledge about impending operations their ship will be participating in. You torture them and demand them to explain upcoming operations. Meanwhile you do the same to other prisoners. Then you compare their stories. If their stories don’t match, you make the torture far worse and promise even worse to come if they don’t tell you something believable. The Japanese killed a lot of POWs as a matter of course anyway, so not like it really costs them anything to torture some guys to death. It was precisely fear of this sort of thing that lead Captain Cromwell, after his submarine _Sculpin_ was mortally wounded, to go down with his ship. He had detailed knowledge about the upcoming Operation Galvanic and was also well informed on the ULTRA program and feared that torture/drugging could lead to him spilling information. He ended up choosing death to the possibility of succumbing to Japanese interrogation. Plus, if you’re the Japanese, prisoners like that are never going to just give you information. You may never get accurate information from torture, but in a big war like that mountains of intelligence is collected. Even a very small chance of getting the inside scoop on an upcoming operation is worth all the negatives associated with torture if you’re the Japanese. Especially since they had no concern for things like the treatment of POWs and also didn’t care at all if retaliatory action was taken against their own POWs (as the Japanese detested any soldier who surrendered and would have seen it as a fitting fate if the Americans tortured them.) Maybe something the sub commander tells you actually matches with other intelligence you’ve gathered, if that happens it might serve as a piece of a large collection of uncertain intel and helps to give you more certainty about it. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/42 "2013-12-21T16:23:27Z")
Why would an American want to become a Japanese citizen … why would an Iraqi want to become a US citizen? These analogies are weak, you can either steal the man’s gold bars … OR … you can buy them from him. Which is lawful? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/43 "2013-12-21T16:33:39Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Why would an American want to become a Japanese citizen … why would an Iraqi want to become a US citizen? No one was talking about Americans being offered Japanese citizenship. Whatever they feel about America I suspect most Iraqis would jump at the offer of permanent residency, when you live in a very unsafe country niceties like it being where you’ve lived your whole life and it being the culture in which you were raised take a backseat to the fact your children might get gunned down or blown up any day. > [@](#): > > These analogies are weak, you can either steal the man’s gold bars … OR … you can buy them from him. Which is lawful? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/44 "2013-12-21T16:44:23Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The simplest example is I’ve decided to rob a rich man’s house, I know from an inside source he keeps a collection of gold bars or something in a secret safe. I do not know the location of the safe or the combination. I break in and take him hostage, I show him a stopwatch and tell him he has 30 seconds to tell me where the safe is and its combination. If he doesn’t, and every 30 seconds after, I’m chopping off one of his fingers. If he runs out of fingers I’ll start chopping off whatever is convenient. OR … you can walk in with bushel baskets of $100 bills … he has 30 seconds to delivery the gold, or you’re walking out with your $100 bills. Which is lawful? The effectiveness of the torture we conducted is classified information … strange … if it was saving American lives, the military would be hawking it over the media. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/45 "2013-12-21T18:18:23Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > So what you’re saying is that 86% of them aren’t just innocent, they’re so innocent that they won’t even take up arms against the criminals who illegally tortured and imprisoned them for years without trial? These people are fucking _saints_. No, I think nearly everyone at Git’mo now factually guilty even if it could not be proved in open court due to security concerns, time elapsed, etc. The fact that releasing them will likely mean roughly a dozen more terrorists out there to kill innocent people is enough for me to moderately support the stays quo until a better viable option presents itself. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/46 "2013-12-21T19:12:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m not retired, so I’m not sure what you are getting at. I mean that it is idiocy to suggest Lehnert is any less credible because he hung on for his two stars instead of resigning his commission. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/47 "2013-12-21T19:16:01Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > … until a better viable option presents itself. Give them all sex change operations … ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/48 "2013-12-21T19:18:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Sure they can. Prisoners of war can be lawfully kept under U.S. authority on U.S. soil, for instance…but not intermingled with criminals in the prison system. But, these prisoners never have been classified as POWs. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/49 "2013-12-21T19:19:55Z")
> [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](#): > > The choom gang member already shut that mother down. Eh? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/50 "2013-12-22T01:51:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I mean that it is idiocy to suggest Lehnert is any less credible because he hung on for his two stars instead of resigning his commission. So you think the views of a person who stayed commissioned to oversee a place that he felt was wrong in order to gain another star and receive more retirement and then, once retired and with nothing to lose, spoke out against said place, are more credible than someone who would give up a promotion in order to publicly decry a place that he felt was wrong? Sorry, but I consider THAT idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/51 "2013-12-23T13:42:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, these prisoners never have been classified as POWs. Right. To recap: They can’t be put in federal prisons, because they haven’t been convicted of a crime. So, this: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I should think the general federal prison system on the mainland is quite secure enough. …is off the table as an option. They can’t be put in POW camps on the mainland, unless they are re-classified as prisoners of war, which means following the Geneva Convention rules for treatment of same. I don’t know if there is precedent for re-classifying people held extrajudicially for years as POWs, the [Geneva Convention](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention/Third_Geneva_Convention) makes it clear that it applies from the moment the prisoner is captured: > [@](#): > > The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation. …but doesn’t address the issue of applying the status after a period of unlawful detention. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/52 "2013-12-23T14:28:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So you think the views of a person who stayed commissioned to oversee a place that he felt was wrong in order to gain another star and receive more retirement and then, once retired and with nothing to lose, spoke out against said place, are more credible than someone who would give up a promotion in order to publicly decry a place that he felt was wrong? > > Sorry, but I consider THAT idiocy. He didn’t say that he was \*more \*credible, but that he wasn’t any _less_. In one case the general is credible but ultimately self-serving, in the other he’s credible and more principled than average. IOW the state of the guy’s moral compass has zip to do with how credible he is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/53 "2013-12-23T14:41:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > No, I think nearly everyone at Git’mo now factually guilty even if it could not be proved in open court due to security concerns, time elapsed, etc. The fact that releasing them will likely mean roughly a dozen more terrorists out there to kill innocent people is enough for me to moderately support the stays quo until a better viable option presents itself. In the eyes of the law, the Gitmo detainees _are_ innocent people. Who the hell are you to decide their “factual guilt”? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/54 "2013-12-23T14:51:37Z")
LOL “factual guilt”. What is the standard of proof/evidence required for guilt to be established in brickbacon’s criminal court system? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/55 "2013-12-24T02:27:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > He didn’t say that he was \*more \*credible, but that he wasn’t any _less_. In one case the general is credible but ultimately self-serving, in the other he’s credible and more principled than average. > IOW the state of the guy’s moral compass has zip to do with how credible he is. Well, I consider a person’s moral compass when I determine how credible he is, if only because he may or may not have the same morals as I do. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/56 "2013-12-24T04:01:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Right. > > To recap: > > They can’t be put in federal prisons, because they haven’t been convicted of a crime. > > So, this: > > …is off the table as an option. > > They can’t be put in POW camps on the mainland, unless they are re-classified as prisoners of war, which means following the Geneva Convention rules for treatment of same. > > I don’t know if there is precedent for re-classifying people held extrajudicially for years as POWs, the [Geneva Convention](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention/Third_Geneva_Convention) makes it clear that it applies from the moment the prisoner is captured: > > …but doesn’t address the issue of applying the status after a period of unlawful detention. Al Qaeda detainees cannot ever be classified as Geneva POWs. It’s not possible via the mechanisms of the Conventions (eg they are not a high contracting party - a State or even a proclaimed State). They can certainly be afforded all the rights of POWs (or more) and there’s no reason why they can’t be detained inside the US, including a federal prison. However, not in the general population and would need a few other tweaks to confinement. For example, we held Manuel Norega as a POW in a federal prison. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/57 "2013-12-24T13:20:27Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Al Qaeda detainees cannot ever be classified as Geneva POWs. It’s not possible via the mechanisms of the Conventions (eg they are not a high contracting party - a State or even a proclaimed State). They can certainly be afforded all the rights of POWs (or more) and there’s no reason why they can’t be detained inside the US, including a federal prison. However, not in the general population and would need a few other tweaks to confinement. For example, we held Manuel Norega as a POW in a federal prison. It depends. The Convention also applies to: > [@](#): > > …all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance. So, anyone captured in territory occupied by the U.S., such as Afghanistan or Iraq, counts. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/58 "2013-12-26T03:55:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In the eyes of the law, the Gitmo detainees _are_ innocent people. Who the hell are you to decide their “factual guilt”? No, they are not “innocent” in the eyes of the law. And I have ever right as to state my opinion that they are guilty as you do to proclaim the innocence. Additionally, my claim is supported by the fact that at least 5 of the prisoners recently RELEASED from from git’mo are convicted war criminals. Not presumed guilty, they actually plead guilty, or were convicted in a court of law. Are you really naive enough to think the remaining prisoners there are just innocent bystanders swept up in the fog of war? Really? > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > LOL “factual guilt”. > > What is the standard of proof/evidence required for guilt to be established in brickbacon’s criminal court system? What the hell are you talking about? I think it’s pretty clear my argument is that these people have taken arms against or conspired to do harm to the US. I think the vast majority have actually committed crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/59 "2013-12-26T04:19:17Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Additionally, my claim is supported by the fact that at least 5 of the prisoners recently RELEASED from from git’mo are convicted war criminals. Not presumed guilty, they actually plead guilty, or were convicted in a court of law. Then I assume you can name them? (Remember, of course, that confessions obtained through torture are automatically invalid) ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251/60 "2013-12-26T04:54:35Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Then I assume you can name them? (Remember, of course, that confessions obtained through torture are automatically invalid) From here: > [@](#): > > The Bush and Obama administrations now have sent five convicted war criminals home from Guantánamo. > > So-called Australian Taliban David Hicks and Bin Laden’s Yemeni driver Salim Hamdan went home during the Bush years. The Obama administration released Omar Khadr to a prison sentence in Canada, where he remains and before Noor this week sent Ibrahim al Qosi back to Sudan last year. That left just one prisoner, Ali Hamza al Bahlul, also a Yemeni, confined to the prison’s Camp 5 corridor that segregates convicts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/general-who-opened-guantanamo-prison-says-shut-it-down/676251.md?page=4)