# Generally one changes a rule THEN enforces it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108 "2009-02-16T16:25:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Suse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Suse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suse)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/81 "2009-02-17T00:07:33Z")
[QUOTE=Ed Zotti] If you wish to take issue with a mod’s admonition in a thread, you may do so, but failing to comply or posting an insulting or abusive response risks disciplinary action, ranging from warning to outright banning. [/QUOTE] That one was from January. [QUOTE=Ed Zotti] \we may be less tolerant of over-the-top behavior than we have been in the past. We’ll try to give you fair warning whenever we decide to rein things in; nonetheless, once those warnings have been made, take heed. [/QUOTE] And from September. Ed’s been fed up with the insults and abuse toward the staff for a long time. He has also said that if you feel a mod has been unjustly abusive or insulting toward you, that you should e-mail him. The mods are at times overly snarky when closing a thread or giving a warning and I don’t think that’s the smartest idea either. I’m a bit more inclined to give them a break just because of the amount of crap they have to take; it appears that in the future they might not have to take as much crap and perhaps that will improve their attitudes when performing mod actions. It’s also been stated questioning a mod action is acceptable;it’s just not acceptable to be abusive or insulting to the mod while you are asking the question. I can’t imagine why anyone would think that would be a productive tactic to take anyway; if you really want someone to do something or to think about your point of view, do you tell them to FOAD? Or go fuck themselves with broomsticks? Are you really so wedded to your tantrums that you can’t see that this might not be the best approach to fix a problem? There are a lot of people here who won’t be happy until the board is exactly the way THEY want it to be and they won’t stop bitching till they get what they want. But it’s Ed’s board, in the end. He’s the one who gets to have it how he wants it. The rest of us either play by his rules or find another playground. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/82 "2009-02-17T00:11:27Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I think that here in Texas, we’ve had far too many cops and lawyers convicting the most convenient person, and not always the person who was, in fact, guilty. I think that we should acknowledge this and try to do better. Lawyers do not convict people. Lawyers try cases to a finder of fact, which may be a judge or a jury. The finder of fact does the convicting, if there is any to be done. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/83 "2009-02-17T00:11:38Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Doesn’t change the fact that she hasn’t moderated here recently, other than when someone dared to knock Planned Parenthood, or otherwise killed one of her sacred cows. Now she’s whining about how strong a insult “fuck off” is. Whatever she had back in the day, she’s lost it now. She’s used her mod/admin stroke to advance her own personal agenda, and that makes all her decisions suspect. Apparently, you have a problem with me because of a few posts. OK, fine. However, if you seriously have an issue with me, I suggest you take it up with Ed. I have been keeping an eye on the Pit. Sometimes I’ve made suggestions as to various issues here. Just because you haven’t seen me doesn’t mean that I haven’t been active. I don’t have a problem with someone telling me to fuck off when it’s part of a discussion, other than it’s really an end of a discussion. My problem is, as I’ve stated numerous times before, getting abuse/disrespect when I’m doing my job as a member of the moderating staff. I have never liked abuse from customers. I didn’t like it when I worked in a convenience store, and some kid got pissed at me because I wouldn’t sell him tobacco/alcohol/let him play the slots. I didn’t like it when I worked in other retail jobs, and I got abuse for the return policy, or for the prices which I didn’t set. Abuse of a worker who is doing her job is NOT acceptable, period. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/84 "2009-02-17T00:15:49Z")
Having just had a rather bitter exchange with an aggrieved poster about following the rules on another board, I know from experience a number of things: 1. There is a balance to be had in moderating any of the fora, serious, play or admin. 2. There is little value in an admin forum if posters can’t properly blow off their steam. 3. Cited posters are generally not happy about being cited - some of them have complete Professional Victim Kits at the ready, and will cheerfully initiate an AOLTeenFuckWit Cascade Event in response to being cited. 4. It doesn’t matter how forum rules are changed - any protocol on creating, publishing and enforcing them will offend some portion of the poster population. But in general, transparency is better. 5. Two kinds of animals live in The Pit - operational/admin issues and inter-poster issues, and they are generally hard to manage in a single forum. The outrage threads are less of an issue to manage, as they are perhaps Very Heated versions of IMHO/Mundane Pointless type threads. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/85 "2009-02-17T00:16:36Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I don’t take it seriously as an insult. However, I DO take it seriously as a challenge to my authority as a mod/admin. Coming from a poster who has made it clear that he intends to be an asshole to the whole moderation team, and who has a history of challenging the team at every opportunity, well, that’s what got him kicked. That was not the stated reason: > [@](#): > > **C K Dexter Haven** > > My understanding is that this is an acronym for “fuck off and die.” I quote from the Registration Agreement: > > > [@](#): > > > > You are free to express your views in a forceful manner provided you remain civil. Hate speech, insults, and purposely inflammatory remarks (i.e., trolling) will not be tolerated. **Do not post threats or state or imply that any individual or group is deserving of harm**. We recognize that this rule cannot be strictly applied in discussions of war, capital punishment and the like but urge users to express themselves in moderate terms nonetheless. **If we tell you to refrain from behavior that we regard as uncivil, do so or face revocation of your posting privileges.** > > Sapo: I do not understand in any sense how telling someone to fuck off and die is not implying that they are deserving of harm. This, taken in context with your promise to be as disruptive and jerkish as you can be, seems a clear violation of our rules. **“I do not understand in any sense how telling someone to fuck off and die is not implying that they are deserving of harm.”?** Really? Since **“Butthurt much”** it has all been a ridiculous progression of trying to cover up one mistake with another one. Had he been told that he was not welcome, even if no reason was given, this would not have escalated like it has. But these silly trumped up charges are ridiculous. Butthurt leads to knife fights? FOAD is a credible threat? The whole thing is beyond ridiculous. I am the first one who would not mind the pit being more civil or even just get rid of it and keep the other forums for civility. But this tack is just ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/86 "2009-02-17T00:26:35Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Apparently, you have a problem with me because of a few posts. OK, fine. However, if you seriously have an issue with me, I suggest you take it up with Ed. > > I have been keeping an eye on the Pit. Sometimes I’ve made suggestions as to various issues here. Just because you haven’t seen me doesn’t mean that I haven’t been active. I don’t have a problem with someone telling me to fuck off when it’s part of a discussion, other than it’s really an end of a discussion. My problem is, as I’ve stated numerous times before, getting abuse/disrespect when I’m doing my job as a member of the moderating staff. I have never liked abuse from customers. I didn’t like it when I worked in a convenience store, and some kid got pissed at me because I wouldn’t sell him tobacco/alcohol/let him play the slots. I didn’t like it when I worked in other retail jobs, and I got abuse for the return policy, or for the prices which I didn’t set. Abuse of a worker who is doing her job is NOT acceptable, period. I’m not getting personal with you. I’m saying that from what I have observed recently, you are a poor choice to moderate the pit. You’re better at it than Ed, but so is my cat. Both of you are probably fine human beings, and I’m sure I’d enjoy either of your company. But both of you have quick tempers, and that’s not a good thing in a Pit Mod. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/87 "2009-02-17T01:06:15Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’m not getting personal with you. I’m saying that from what I have observed recently, you are a poor choice to moderate the pit. You’re better at it than Ed, but so is my cat. Both of you are probably fine human beings, and I’m sure I’d enjoy either of your company. But both of you have quick tempers, and that’s not a good thing in a Pit Mod. I will admit that I have a quick temper. However, you should see what I DON’T post, and DON’T moderate. I think that you should take a longer look at how I moderate before you judge me. I promise that I will be more diligent in taking my pain meds than I have been in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/88 "2009-02-17T01:36:53Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I will admit that I have a quick temper. However, you should see what I DON’T post, and DON’T moderate. That’s me lately. The posting part, I mean. You wouldn’t believe how much I’ve just let go, moving on elsewhere. I got the advice sometime back that if I’m really pissed, I should just type out what I feel, preview it, and then click a link to get out. It’s probably saved my ass a time or two. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/89 "2009-02-17T02:13:53Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > It’s a place to vent, but not a place to go over the line. So you’ll all be going back and issuing those people who’ve used FOAD or DIAF and banning them all, right? I mean, you wouldn’t want people to think you were playing un-favorites. Will you just use the ever-so-helpful search function to find those? Have a look-see and see how many times it’s been used on the board and how few times you’ve all decided to do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/90 "2009-02-17T02:20:50Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I will admit that I have a quick temper. However, you should see what I DON’T post, and DON’T moderate. I have a problem with this. Personally, I think **Lynn Bodoni** is a poor moderator, one of the worst here. I’ve seen her let her emotions get carried away while moderating far too many times over the years. I DON’T want to see what she DOESN’T post. What she does is inconsistent and over the top often enough as it is. And, I have one personal beef. She once gave me a stern warning for supposedly misquoting someone in quote tags, which I did not do. I went back and checked, and several other posters spoke up on my behalf–pointing out that she was wrong and had falsely accused me–but she neither acknowledged this nor apologized. I know this was a long time ago, but it stuck with me. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/91 "2009-02-17T02:43:53Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I have a problem with this. > > Personally, I think **Lynn Bodoni** is a poor moderator, one of the worst here. I’ve seen her let her emotions get carried away while moderating far too many times over the years. I DON’T want to see what she DOESN’T post. What she does is inconsistent and over the top often enough as it is. > > And, I have one personal beef. She once gave me a stern warning for supposedly misquoting someone in quote tags, which I did not do. I went back and checked, and several other posters spoke up on my behalf–pointing out that she was wrong and had falsely accused me–but she neither acknowledged this nor apologized. I know this was a long time ago, but it stuck with me. I don’t know **Lynn** from Adam, and can’t comment on her professionalism or lack thereof, but this brings up something else: Subjectivity. Now yeah, you’re going to find it on any board, but the reason it’s not as bad here is that the rules are simple, clear cut, and reasonably fair. Now however good your intentions might be, if you start leaving too much to interpretation, sooner or later it’s going to get bad. Bad rulings aren’t something you start doing right away; it’s kind of a slow creep. But you could be the best mod on the boards, and if you don’t have clear guidelines, all this means is that it’s going to take longer for you to turn into a fuckup. I don’t want to see this place Yuku’d. If I want a biased, subjective, rule base, I’ll go back to surfing the human wreckage on the rightwing messageboards there. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/92 "2009-02-17T02:47:16Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Most of what people are seeing as new rules are not new rules. They are just clarifications of rules already in place. The first rule was and still is “Don’t be a jerk.” Insulting a mod when she’s doing moderation duty is pretty clearly being a jerk. My two cents-- I want to believe you, I really do. But I’m disturbed by the fact that two mods are stepping down from modding the Pit at this time–and not even pretending it’s because of a wish to spend more time with their families–to borrow a useful justification for sudden job changes from politicians. I’ve never seen the appeal of reading people being rude to mods doing their jobs, much lest the point of actively being rude to mods doing their jobs, (and my tolerance for people complaining about the SDMB has taken a nosedive in the past six months, as my perception has been that the amount of complaints has gone up). So I don’t know if there has been a gradual erosion of civility towards mods, or something else going on. And an SDMB without the BBQ Pit as I’ve come to know and love it is still a place I want to be–so long as it is for enough of the rest of the crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/93 "2009-02-17T02:51:17Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Will you just use the ever-so-helpful search function to find those? What search function? > [@](#): > > Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 134217728 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 9 bytes) in /home/straightdope/boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php on line 1007 Is part of the change going to include getting a search function? ---
**Author:** ![Buckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Buckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buckeye)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/94 "2009-02-17T04:44:10Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I never won a thread before. Do I get an internets as my prize? No. The new prizes are warnings and bannings! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/95 "2009-02-17T06:23:24Z")
> [@](#): > > **Lynn** : …In any place of business, abuse of the workers is not allowed, and will generally get an abusive patron thrown out. But there is also consideration given to the complaints of the patrons. When there is a problem, the tradition is for the customer (or even another employee) to “go through channels” – begin with the source of the problem. But you say: > [@](#): > > If you have complaints about the way I do my job, talk to Ed. I can understand the rule against displays of disrespect to a moderator in the process of moderating in a thread. But we can’t even approach you about it? Not even in another thread or PM or email? What happens when you misunderstand something or make an honest mistake? We can’t even point that out to you? What happens if we have information about the Doper that you are dealing with that you might not know? What I hear you saying, **Lynn** , is that you need to be above criticism. The only problem that I have ever had with **Ed** was once when he put peacefulness above conflict resolution with a mod. > [@](#): > > **Lynn Bodoni** : Telling anyone to go fuck off is at the very least rude. If you tell it to the wrong authority figure, it can get you killed. > [@](#): > > **Lynn** : If I claimed that Southern cops STILL will abuse their powers as a matter of course, then I think that would be South bashing… Your first comment was in the present tense: “If you tell it to the wrong authority figure, it can get you killed.” I don’t care whether you have lived in the South or not, you are promoting an ignorant stereotype from the past. > [@](#): > > Lynn: I don’t take it seriously as an insult. However, I DO take it seriously as a challenge to my authority as a mod/admin. Why? Your authority does not come from the posters. They cannot take over your position. You are the one in control. All they have are words – just symbols. You have power. Since you don’t take their words seriously as an insult anyway, why give them control of your emotions? Just something to think about. Not needing an answer. I hope that you manage to have some fun out of this! ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/96 "2009-02-17T06:39:02Z")
You people whining that you should know not to do something before you’re punished for it obviously grew up differently than I did. Getting in trouble for something was how the rules were established in our house. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/97 "2009-02-17T06:58:06Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > You people whining that you should know not to do something before you’re punished for it obviously grew up differently than I did. Getting in trouble for something was how the rules were established in our house. I don’t care about the rule being in place as I’ve never had the urge to tell someone to fuck off and die. What is amusing is that they allow some to use it and DIAF, but suspend someone else for using the same phrase. In the case of Sapo, it seems as if they are deciding to enforce it as a banning offense while others slide by without even a warning because of his frequent criticism of the administration, especially in cases where they seem to have no defense or explanation of their ridiculous actions. In a way, I suppose Sapo should have expected it considering Ed is such a fragile little girl that he is threatened by someone talking about mopping the floor with his ass. In closing, it doesn’t make me angry. It is hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/98 "2009-02-17T07:03:44Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I don’t take it seriously as an insult. However, I DO take it seriously as a challenge to my authority as a mod/admin. Coming from a poster who has made it clear that he intends to be an asshole to the whole moderation team, and who has a history of challenging the team at every opportunity, well, that’s what got him kicked. He had a history of being an asshole, not just to me, but to everyone who mods. > > The Powers That Be are unhappy with the way the Pit has been running lately. I was asked to step back in. I had asked, earlier (don’t know how much earlier) to pretty much retire from the Pit and moderating in general. I stayed on as an admin so that I could cover for anyone who was taking a break, or was going to be offline, or whatever. I very rarely used my admin/mod powers, except to ban the occasional spammer when I noticed one, or to fix a poster’s problem (for instance, Scylla had one of his posts reprinted all over the internet, usually no attribution, and I spent some time and money correcting the worst of it). Now I’ve been asked to come in again, and bring the Pit more in line with what TPTB want. I accepted the job. If you have complaints about the way I do my job, talk to Ed. I’m pretty sure that this is the plot to Rambo III ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/99 "2009-02-17T07:39:33Z")
FTR: I usually only participate in Pit threads that have interesting topics. I have traded a few insults but I really don’t remember with who or about what. I’m pretty sure I have not traded insults with any mods. I like being on a moderated board. I don’t want a free for all. That being said I have seen a lot wrong going on here. Sapo kept pushing the issue. He wouldn’t let go. But that was more about the fact that he was ignored when he had a real point. The whole butthurt /knife fight thing was ridiculous and it should have been ended with a mod retraction. It wasn’t. I have seen a lot of mod snarkiness and insults by mods when acting as posters. As I see it you can have it one of two ways. 1. Mods do not post as normal posters. Maybe they could post in a neutral style. No snark. No insults. Even in the Pit. Only polite questions about their actions will be allowed and no mod abuse. 2. Mods post as they want within the rules. Make clear distinction when they are moderating. Reserving the right to post insults and snark as posters results in a lack of immunity from the same as mods. Being immune to negative criticism while being able to post insults as a poster is right out. ---
**Author:** ![Jaglavak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@Jaglavak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaglavak)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108/100 "2009-02-17T07:50:19Z")
Man, you guys are a royal bunch of whiners. The point was made in blinking neon font, don’t be a jerk. People are trying to keep the lights on around here. Dude was a jerk, got banned. OK, so maybe not fully kosher; banning currently under review. And from there on down, call the fuckin wahmbulance. I hope you get audited. By hand, on a day when the computers are down. :: sigh :: And of course, Loach posts something eminently reasonable and blows my shit out of the water. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generally-one-changes-a-rule-then-enforces-it/486108.md?page=6)