[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
.The latter is nonsense, unless the species has suddenly and mysteriously evolved to the point that teenagers don’t want to separate themselves from their parents in style, politics and everything else important, as has been going on for thousands of years outside of odd situations like the Amish.
[/QUOTE]
I thought the idea of teenaged rebellion was a fairly recent, and mostly Western, one. It’s by no means universal or timeless, so far as I know.
[QUOTE=pulykamell]
I thought the idea of teenaged rebellion was a fairly recent, and mostly Western, one. It’s by no means universal or timeless, so far as I know.
[/QUOTE]
Even the idea of “teenagers” is pretty new. For most of human history (and in many cultures even today), teenagers have been considered adults. Humans usually haven’t had this buffer period between childhood and full adulthood.
[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
(snip)The latter is nonsense, unless the species has suddenly and mysteriously evolved to the point that teenagers don’t want to separate themselves from their parents in style, politics and everything else important, as has been going on for thousands of years outside of odd situations like the Amish. 
[/QUOTE]
Amish have an elder approved period of "rebellion" called rumspringa.
[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
And “Country” is the largest radio format because middle-aged women who work in offices listen to the stuff all day long. That’s how “Country” became king. Although the number of teens that listen to country is surprising.
[/QUOTE]
Hey, watch it! Middle-aged woman here, surrounded by middle-aged women (and a few men) working in offices, and I can honestly say that out of the 20 of us here, only two listen to country - and one of those is a 60-yr-old Chinese woman. So back off on the stereotypes, bub.
[QUOTE=pulykamell]
I thought the idea of teenaged rebellion was a fairly recent, and mostly Western, one. It’s by no means universal or timeless, so far as I know.
[/QUOTE]
What’s that quote that gets recycled about the young not respecting their elders, wearing unseemly clothes etc. (and refers to ancient Athens or somesuch)?
Incidentally, declaring that your generation is above the need for rebellion is actually a form of rebellion, so it’s a no-win situation and you’re stuck being different, like everyone before you.
As for the Amish, “approved” rebellion is no rebellion at all. 
[QUOTE=singular1]
Hey, watch it! Middle-aged woman here, surrounded by middle-aged women (and a few men) working in offices, and I can honestly say that out of the 20 of us here, only two listen to country - and one of those is a 60-yr-old Chinese woman. So back off on the stereotypes, bub.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not a stereotype when it’s true. I don’t have the circulation data handy, but trust me, middle-aged women check out stacks of Country CDs from the library I work at and (ancedotally) many of them have told me it’s all they listen all day at work.
I am 53 years old, and I’ve had several of the 20-somethings in my office ask me about the music of my generation. Rock became classic music in a way that rap never will.
The biggest shock was a 21 year old man asking me if I had ever heard of a great singer named Leonard Cohen!
[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
What’s that quote that gets recycled about the young not respecting their elders, wearing unseemly clothes etc. (and refers to ancient Athens or somesuch)?
[/QUOTE]
I have no idea, but I wouldn’t take some saying as evidence that teenaged rebellion existed all the way back into ancient Greek times. I’m not exactly sure it did.
[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
What’s that quote that gets recycled about the young not respecting their elders, wearing unseemly clothes etc. (and refers to ancient Athens or somesuch)?
[/quote]
Was it this?
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
It’s spurious.
It looks these authors, Patty and Louise Johnson attributed the quote to Socrates, via Plato, in their book, and that people picked up on it from there, but, alas, no such quote can be found in any of Plato’s works.
There’s a similar apocryphal quote complaining of the disrespect of today’s youth and the immodest dress of the girls attributed to Peter the Hermit.
I think these kind of quotations bitching about the youth and being attributed to ancient sources was kind of the 60’s equivalent of George Carlin email forwards.
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas]
I am 53 years old, and I’ve had several of the 20-somethings in my office ask me about the music of my generation. Rock became classic music in a way that rap never will.
[/QUOTE]
Why do you say that? In 30 years, you might be changing your tune.
[QUOTE=burundi]
Why do you say that? In 30 years, you might be changing your tune.
[/QUOTE]
Rap’s lack of “classic” CDs is actually considered a huge problem in the music business (Billboard is interesting reading, sue me).
You can pretty much count on one hand the number of rap CDs that continued to sell more than a year after they’ve been released. Sure, there are a few. But even the all-time bestselling rap CDs only sell about as many as the last Hannah Montana CD. Compare that with artists like The Eagles or Michael Jackson that sell over 25 million.
I know, sales don’t mean everything, especially when it comes to the “classics.” But if the music isn’t even well known a few years after it’s released, how will it hold up for 30 years?
[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
Rap’s lack of “classic” CDs is actually considered a huge problem in the music business (Billboard is interesting reading, sue me).
You can pretty much count on one hand the number of rap CDs that continued to sell more than a year after they’ve been released. Sure, there are a few. But even the all-time bestselling rap CDs only sell about as many as the last Hannah Montana CD. Compare that with artists like The Eagles or Michael Jackson that sell over 25 million.
I know, sales don’t mean everything, especially when it comes to the “classics.” But if the music isn’t even well known a few years after it’s released, how will it hold up for 30 years?
[/QUOTE]
You raise an interesting point, and one that I hadn’t considered. I still think rap and hip-hop aren’t going anywhere. I’m not a huge hip-hop/rap fan, but it always amuses me to hear baby boomers complain about rap. Don’t they realize they sound exactly like parents in the '50s and '60s complaining about rock?
[QUOTE=burundi]
Don’t they realize they sound exactly like parents in the '50s and '60s complaining about rock?
[/QUOTE]
No, and I’ve had this conversation with many of them.
But rap really does suck. It’s not like rock. Rap really is just noise. They can’t even play their own instruments or write their own songs. They just chant inanities over other people’s music. It’s no wonder it has no shelf life.
Another factor to consider that to younger generations, the music of the “classic rock” era still sounds edgy to younger listeners. It’s easy for baby boomers to forget that; the music’s been around so long and has been exploited too much for nostalgia’s sake. I remember as a teenager in a small town (I’m 33 now) that there was only three forms of music that I had easy access to–top 40, country, and classic rock. It blew my mind that bands like Pink Floyd could get away with sonically complex ten minute songs, or that the Beatles or Queen could make albums that sounded like several unrelated bands. It was really edgy to me since the other music I listened to wasn’t so adventurous. I imagine that’s even truer today: what’s edgier, Nickelback or Zep? The Doors or Coldplay?
I was around at the beginning of both rock and rap. Rock was like dropping a bomb into the ocean. It was reviewed, written about, and just plain out dominated the world. It was so new and different.
Yes, parents criticized. But eventually most of them came around. I remember my mother, the very conservation New Englander, saying “You know, I heard a Beatles song on the radio and it isn’t bad music.”
Rap is more like a rock in the pond. It made some ripples, then died down. A lot of the major rappers were either killed, went mainstream, or got out the business and achieve more fame than by rapping (Wil Smith). Many rock groups are still rocking.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
But rap really does suck. It’s not like rock. Rap really is just noise.
[/QUOTE]
And this week’s award for proving my point goes to…
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas]
I was around at the beginning of both rock and rap…<snip>
[/QUOTE]
You know. This seems to really pound home why there are few “classic” rap albums.
What, are you saying it’s Annie’s fault? That’s a bit harsh…
Some forms of music never go away. People young and old have been listening to classical music for hundreds of years. Rock may be around just as long.
If anything, I think the strange period between 1920 and 1970 is the outlier here - the rapid advance of mass communication, the rise of the automobile, the urbanization of the population and the end of rural life as the driving force of culture all happened at the same time.
Before the phonograph came along music was an interactive, shared experience. If you wanted to hear music, you’d gather around the piano and sing and play. It was a bonding experience. The music was safe and predictable.
Along comes the phonograph, and now you don’t have to listen to what Dad is listening to. Music is no longer a bonding experience, but potentially a divisive one. In the meantime, the music industry itself and the artists were learning to cope with the new technology. Pop music was a reflection of the music people had been exposed to before the phonograph came along - traditional instruments, female groups with multi-part harmonies, family singers, and traditional instruments.
But music started growing up. The phono album allowed musical genres such as the Blues and Bluegrass to be heard by people who had never experienced that music before. Music started to meld together, and something new was created. New instruments like electric guitars and synthesizers started to appear. The young embraced all this first (as they usually do with new technology and new experiences), and this threatened their parents.
Those of us who lived through some of this came to think that this generational split was the norm - that we could fully expect that our kids would think Rock was as stupid as we thought the Andrews Sisters and Fabian were, and they’d be groovin’ to the latest space-age Theremin ensemble or something, and we’d be telling them to turn that racket down. But I think what happened was really a one-shot deal. We lived through a transitional period, and now we’re out of it. Now music is music, and it no longer has the power to split generations.
Something similar happened with the automobile, which has been widely credited with creating the ‘teenager’. Before the auto, teens had no way to really get away from their families. They were children while they lived at home, then they left as adults. There was no quasi-adult ‘teenager’ status.
The car came along and made this possible. And at the same time, it became somewhat divisive. Kids who were not old enough to live on their own could still travel long distances from their families and hang out with other kids their age. And an entire car culture was born. There were drive-in movies, drive-in soda shops, teen car gatherings every night in designated areas, and all the rest.
But that was a transitional phase too. Cars are just part of the fabric of society now. Teens don’t identify themselves with their cars like they used to. Cars aren’t a factor in the generational divide - if you see a new Mustang driving down the road, the driver could just as easily be an 18 year old woman or a 65 year old man. Back in the day, old people drove Buicks and Cadillacs or Chevy sedans, and young people drove Camaros and Mustangs and hot rods. Cars fit into generational categories in a way they no longer really do.
Anyway, Rock has been around for a long time now, and it’s now enjoyed by people of all ages. I’ve been to a few concerts recently, and it always astounds me that the age range is as wide as it is. I went to see the White Stripes last year, and there were kids no older than 12 there - and a lot of grandparents, too. Rock is simply not ‘youth’ music anymore. It’s just music.
I’ve been listening to Kid Rock’s new album, which is near the top of the charts, and there are songs on there I could swear are Bob Seger anthems from 30 years ago. The big hit off it right now is ‘Summertime’ - a mashup of “Sweet Home Alabama” and “Werewolves of London” - two songs that were written 35 years ago.