# Generic names outside the US/UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 5, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405 "2013-08-05T15:41:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/1 "2013-08-05T15:41:53Z")
I the US, there’s a few generic names used for various purposes. Are there equivalents in other (non-English speaking) countries? Examples: John Doe, Jane Doe - unidentified crime victims. Also John Does and Richard Roe as [generic parties in a legal proceeding](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/448/where-does-the-name-john-doe-come-from). Joe Blow - generic everyman, used conversationally. The Joneses - generic neighbors whom we try to keep up with. I’m sure there are other examples in the US or UK. But does, say, Mexico have a e.g. “Juan/Juanita Doe” equivalent? France? Japan? And are there widely used generic names used in other countries that do _not_ have equivalents in English speaking countries? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/2 "2013-08-05T15:56:26Z")
The UK does not traditionally use John Doe (and his relatives _Jane Doe_ and _Richard Roe_), certainly not in the quasi-formal way that America does. However, we do have (or used to have: it may be a bit dated now) _Joe Bloggs_, who designates the uneducated, working class everyman (with overtones of contempt). A variant is _Joe Blow_. A less stigmatizing version of the British everyman is _the man on the Clapham omnibus_. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/3 "2013-08-05T16:05:16Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > But does, say, Mexico have a e.g. “Juan/Juanita Doe” equivalent? The equivalent to “Tom, Dick, and Harry” in Spanish is _Fulano, Mengano, y Zutano._ _Fulano_ alone is more or less Joe Blow or so-and-so. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/4 "2013-08-05T16:06:31Z")
IIRC, from a Soviet lit class in my undergrad days, Russian has “Ivan Ivanov” as a generic everyman. (Literally “John, son of John”.) ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/5 "2013-08-05T16:26:10Z")
I saw a docket at pizza restaurant once which used John and Jane **Dough** for a nameless order! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/6 "2013-08-05T17:15:03Z")
Someone removed the list from the wiki article on John Doe but, aha! They have [change control](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AJohn_Doe#List_is_extremely_unencyclopedic)! For the Spanish list I’ve never heard Sultano; the lastnames “de Tal” and “de Cual” translate more or less as “Whatever”; Juan Español (John Spaniard) isn’t just any John Doe, it’s either a dude with stereotypically Spanish looks (for example, 90% of the male cast of [Los Hombres de Paco](http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_hombres_de_Paco)) or the embodiment of Spanish dudes/people (depends on context). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/7 "2013-08-05T17:16:00Z")
In Israel it’s “_Ploni Almoni_”, an archaic Hebrew phrase meaning “unknown person”. I’ve also seen “Israel/Israela Israeli” on forms. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/8 "2013-08-05T17:30:07Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > IIRC, from a Soviet lit class in my undergrad days, Russian has “Ivan Ivanov” as a generic everyman. (Literally “John, son of John”.) Fully rendered, it’s “Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov.” – John, son of John John. A female version (if used) would be “Ivana Ivanevna Ivanova.” ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/9 "2013-08-05T23:02:38Z")
German has at least two examples “Otto Normalverbraucher” (Otto Average Consumer) is maybe similar to Joe Blow, someone who is, well, an average consumer “Max Mustermann” and his sister Erika (hard to translate, Muster means pattern) are usually found on examples of documents or ID cards. They typically live in the Musterstraße. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/10 "2013-08-06T00:54:34Z")
France : > [@squeegee](#): > > John Doe, Jane Doe - unidentified crime victims. I think they’re refered to as “X”. Definititely “X” for legal proceedings : “porter plainte contre X” = bring charges against an unidentified person. > [@](#): > > Joe Blow - generic everyman, used conversationally. > The Joneses - generic neighbors whom we try to keep up with. Monsieur Tout le monde (Mister Everybody). Monsieur Dupont, les Duponts. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/11 "2013-08-06T07:07:46Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The UK does not traditionally use John Doe (and his relatives _Jane Doe_ and _Richard Roe_), certainly not in the quasi-formal way that America does. However, we do have (or used to have: it may be a bit dated now) _Joe Bloggs_, who designates the uneducated, working class everyman (with overtones of contempt). A variant is _Joe Blow_. A less stigmatizing version of the British everyman is _the man on the Clapham omnibus_. Don’t forget John Smith, [John Bull](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bull) (who, I suppose was our equivalent of Uncle Sam), and Joe Public. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/12 "2013-08-06T07:35:25Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#): > > “Max Mustermann” and his sister Erika (hard to translate, Muster means pattern) are usually found on examples of documents or ID cards. They typically live in the Musterstraße. Strasse = street, right? Pattern street? Pattern-district? ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/13 "2013-08-06T07:47:51Z")
Muster in this context means specimen. Erika Mustermann is the fictitious lady who is the bearer of an German identity card, passport, drivers license etc. for the purpose of demonstrating how these documents look like. “mann” is a generic syllable which is a part of many German family names (Zimmermann, Hoffmann, Hartmann etc.). ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/14 "2013-08-06T08:27:19Z")
In Norwegian, Ola and Kari Nordmann do the job of standing in for the average person. “Nordmann” is the Norwegian word for a Norwegian. When the person’s name is unknown, or is for some reason being withheld, “N.N.” is often used, or “Navn Navnesen” (“Name Name-son”). This often turns up on pictures of identity cards, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/15 "2013-08-06T08:32:01Z")
I’ve been led to believe that in South Africa “van der Merwe” (or “van de Merwe”) is kind of a generic name, like if you need a joke about a stereotypical Dutch-descended South African you call him “\ van der Merwe”; sort of like naming an Irish guy in a story “Seamus O’Flanagan”. (I believe that District 9 was deliberately invoking this with Wikus van der Merwe, I think Wikus is also a semi-stereotypical name). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/16 "2013-08-06T08:38:55Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > A female version (if used) would be “Ivana Ivanevna Ivanova.” “Ivana” is not in any way a common Russian name. And it would be “Ivan **o** vna” ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/17 "2013-08-06T09:00:17Z")
It was standard in fictitious examples in Roman law to use the names Gaius, Titius, and Seius: > **[Penguin Random House](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/)** > > Committed to publishing great books, connecting readers and authors globally, and spreading the love of reading. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/18 "2013-08-06T10:08:55Z")
Not seen much now, but Tommy Atkins was the generic name for a British soldier from the 18th century. Later just the British ‘Tommy’. There seems to be any number of theories as to where it came from. I always assumed that it was a fictitious name used as an example entry on something like a pay book. According to Wikipedia, John Doe originated in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/19 "2013-08-06T10:14:17Z")
In genealogy NN (Nomen nescio) is often used to indicate an unknown name. eg. NN Smith. It translates roughly as _I do not know the name._ ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405/20 "2013-08-06T10:32:11Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Muster in this context means specimen. Erika Mustermann is the fictitious lady who is the bearer of an German identity card, passport, drivers license etc. for the purpose of demonstrating how these documents look like. “mann” is a generic syllable which is a part of many German family names (Zimmermann, Hoffmann, Hartmann etc.). Ah OK, if I think of that as “Sample” it makes more sense in that kind of context. (Like if you get a wallet with a cardboard sample ID stuck in one of the pockets as an example, with fake information on it.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/generic-names-outside-the-us-uk/665405.md?page=2)