Genesis creation in bible doesn't make sense

Factual Questions
21

A few clarifications:

  • The dating of the written text of Genesis (in the form we have it) is uncertain, but somewhere from about 1200 BC (if it was written by Moses) to about 700 BC (with far older components, if it was edited by a J/E redactor). Thus, closer to 3,000 years old than to 2,000 years old.

  • Other parts of the Bible (Old Testament) were written at other periods of time, from 1000 BC to about 150 BC. New Testament was pretty much written from about 80 AD to about 150 AD. The point is: we have different authors and different centuries for different sections of the Bible. Why is it so hard to think that Genesis creation stories are poetry (not literal science texts) and that stories from Kings are history?

22

[[[Also, as Archimedes stated, most people call things symbolic not because of any logical reason to doubt it, but because it cramps their style to believe it. It’s only illogical because they want it to be illogical.]]]

Nonsense. I can come up with about a million and one reasons why it is illogical to insist on a literal interpretation of the Genesis myth.

[[(Alex:Jesus and His disciples didn’t take the Creation story as mythology, in fact they
seemed to believe it.]]]

So what? 150 years ago, many people believed the universe was filled with an invisible fluid through which light waves propagated, but we’re pretty sure that isn’t true, either.

** Phil D. **
“Not only is the world queerer than we imagine,
it is queerer than we can imagine.”
–J.B.S. Haldane

23

Diceman said, “We still have people who don’t believe the Holocaust happened! Nothing’s good enough for some people:” With all respect, this is a lousy comparison. Sure, there are some people who don’t believe the Holocaust happened. These people, by the way, tend to have other pretty strange beliefs. There is evidence on film that the Holocaust happened, in addition to millions of Nazi document and eyewitness testimony (including people who are alive today).
There is no evidence that Jesus was any kind of deity except that in the Bible, which is obviously a biased source. Don’t compare the truth of the Holocaust with the idea that Jesus was a god. One has been determined to be true, the other is simply a religious belief.

24

[[
[quote:

I don’t believe Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed

Perhaps you should. Their ruins have been rather convincingly identified. I think they
are beneath the Dead Sea, but it could be the Sea of Galilee or another nearby body
of water. In any event, the ruins lie on an underwater shelf that used to be above the
sea’s surface.]
]]

I’m not sure why you would think that the possible discovery of Sodom and Gomorrah demonstrates that they were destroyed as described in the Bible any more than the discovery of Troy demonstrated that the Iliad really happened, but whatever. That’s precisely the kind of illogical thinking I’m talking about. I wouldn’t expect that the Bible writers made up place names for their stories. I read a Stephen King book once that took place in Las Vegas and Boulder, but I’m fairly sure it didn’t happen.

** Phil D. **
“Not only is the world queerer than we imagine,
it is queerer than we can imagine.”
–J.B.S. Haldane

25

Gee, I dunno…Maybe because this is at least the third thread where you’ve asserted that noone in the bible can be proved to exist?

Also, I do not claim that I believe Genesis is historical truth, at least not the parts in question. I stated that I believe most of the bible should be taken as is. More specifically, this includes pretty much the whole bible after the beginning of Genesis (the Primeval History, the first few chapters) In preparation for this post I read my bible, the “Fireside Study Edition” of the Catholic bible. It has an introduction to every book and footnotes throughout, to clue the reader in to things like historical context, underlying themes, and when info. may have been lost in translation. I’d recommend it to anyone. Anyway, Genesis has deep seated underlying truths, that remain true whether you believe the details or not. In creation, the main points are [1]The pre-existance and trancendence of God (ie, He existed before time or space) [2] His power and wisdom [3] Everything owes its existance to God [4]People were created in His image and likeness. You can believe that Creation is literally true, or you can believe that it is a myth told because quantum physics was still 10,000 years away. The above four points don’t change one iota.

As for Noah, I have no idea whether he actually put two of all the animals into an ark. No matter what he did, the lesson is that God will punish us for our wickedness, but He is always ready to save us if we are willing. Flood myths go back a loooooong way, and exist in many cultures. What we know about the dawn of humanity suggests that a catostrophic flood could easily have endangered our earliest ancestors. Dunno about you, but if I got a divine warning of a catostrophic flood, I’d be more than happy to build a boat, and put anything God wanted in it :slight_smile:

After the Primeval History section, the bible shifts from myth-and-legend-type stories to historical accounts. Why are people like Phil D so loath to believe that Abraham and Moses existed? You can easily contine to claim that the bible is not divinly inspired while granting that these guys probably lived and breathed. Anyway, from here Genesis begins to explain the special relationship God has formed with us. This continues right through to the end of the bible. Most of the events from here on out can be identified historically. We know when the conquest of the holy land occured (I don’t have the exact dates with me, maybe someone else does), and historians have a pretty good idea which pharoic dynasty the biblical Pharoh must have belonged to. (Don’t bother looking in Egyptian history; the Egyptians always omitted any kind of defeat from their records. The Hebrews were somewhat unusual in that they did not do this. The exception to this is that they never recorded who destroyed the Ark of the Covanent)

In conclusion, the bible has much history. It has much wisdom. It may have some myth. It has truth throughout.

“I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms.” -The Secret of Monkey Island

26

Phil is a self-professed atheist. I’m pretty sure that Ian is a Christian (if somewhat skeptical of myth foisted off as fact).

Well, you could do as most Catholic scholars do and not “dismiss” the figurative and allegorical sections. Are you familiar with Mircea Eliade’s statement that “Myths tell only of that which really happened.”? The point is that the stories of myth, while usually fanciful and often wildly improbable, express profound truths about the human psyche or the growth of a people. In this context, one would not expect the Bible to be a literally accurate history of events, but one would expect the stories of the Bible to explain the relationship of man and God (as viewed through 800-1800 years of Jewish experience in the Old Testament and as viewed by a fairly small group of followers of Jesus (and their immediate successors) over 40-50 years in the first century. There are historical elements in Scripture. The way to discover the historical facts, however, is to compare the texts (of Kings for example) against the archaelogical evidence (for a Jewish dynasty near that period). The Truth of the Bible is not found in its facts, but in its True Stories.

OR, they treated it as Scripture, which is entirely different than treating it as historical fact. As a matter of fact, to the extent that they treated it as True, they very much took the Creation story as myth.

Tom~

27

Leviticus 18 22
“`Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”
Deuteronomy 14 8
“The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.”

I’m sure some of you have seen or heard these two together before.
If the first says it’s understandable to beat the shit out of a homosexual, then the second must also say you cannot play football.

O.K. now. Are we literal, or are we figurative.
I do not mean to offend anyone.
Are these unfair examples?

Peace,
mangeorge

“If you tell the truth you don’t have to remember anything” Mark Twain 1894

28

In Chapter One of Genesis it claerly states that God created all the animals and then created man. In Chapter Two of Genesis it clearly states that God created man and then created all the animals. In my mind this is God’s way of telling future readers of the Bible they shouldn’t take everything the Bible says literally. The Bible is a moral message not a textbook.

29

[[Big Iron: Go watch a “scientific” debate on the effects of global warming. You’ll be amazed at how flexible the rules of logic will become.]]
I don’t know where to start with that one. How about, just because there is controversy doesn’t mean there is legitimate dispute?

[[ This should convince you that what people consider reasonable evidence is often worlds apart, and is almost always a direct function of what they WANT to be proven at the end of the day.]]

Yes, people aften see what they want to see, but that mundane observation in itself carries no weight. Again, I think the burden of that tendency rests a lot more on you.
[[Re: Sodom and Gomorrah. I’ve seen maps before. They showed exact locations where ruins have been found. I’ll try to find the source again. ]]
Please do.
[
[quote:

{{ Also, as Archimedes stated, most people call things symbolic not because of any logical reason to doubt it, but because it cramps their style to believe it. It’s only illogical because they want it to be illogical. }}—Me

Not just a lie, a damned lie. I thought lies made the baby Jesus cry?—Big Iron
Aww, come on. Don’t give up without at least an argument. What would Phil D think]
]
How am I giving up? The statement is self-evidently idiotic, and a slander. I’m not wasting my time reinventing the wheel here, at least not right now.

30

After Cain slew Abel wasn’t he banished to live with another tribe? I think they were the Caananites or something. Who were they? Does Genesis state God only created Adam and Eve? I’m not anything close to a bible scholar so I really don’t know.

Has anyone seen my keys?

31

[[[Gee, I dunno…Maybe because this is at least the third thread where you’ve asserted
that noone in the bible can be proved to exist?]]]

Please quote to me any assertion I made which directly says or can reasonably be interpreted as “Noone in the Bible can be proved to exist.” I never said any such thing and you damned well know it.

Also, rather than dodging the question, please explain how the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah “proves” the Biblical story or the same, in a way the the existence of Troy does not “prove” the Iliad.

[[[Also, I do not claim that I believe Genesis is historical truth, at least not the parts in question.]]]

Backpedal, backpedal . . .

[[[ I stated that I believe most of the bible should be taken as is. More
specifically, this includes pretty much the whole bible after the beginning of Genesis
(the Primeval History, the first few chapters)]]]

Oh, geez, you’re gonna strain a calf pedaling that hard.

[[In preparation for this post I read my
bible, the “Fireside Study Edition” of the Catholic bible.]]]

I prefer the online edition, personally.

[[[Anyway, Genesis has deep seated underlying truths, that remain true whether you believe the details or not. In creation, the main points are [1]The pre-existance and trancendence of God (ie, He existed before time or space) [2] His power and wisdom [3] Everything owes its existance to God [4]People were created in His image and likeness. You can believe that Creation is literally true, or you can believe that it is a myth told because quantum physics was still 10,000 years away. The above four points don’t change one iota.]]]

If you happen to believe they are true, which I obviously do not.

[[[[Dunno about you, but if I got a divine warning of a catostrophic flood, I’d be more than happy to build a boat, and put anything God wanted in it ]]]]

I suspect our definitions of “divine warning” differ significantly.

[[[[Why are people like Phil D so loath to believe that Abraham and Moses existed?]]]

Please quote any post where I claimed that either of these two men did not exist.

Oh, yeah, Tom, if death and disease entered the world as the result of Adam and Eve’s sin of disobedience, then logically speaking, deformity is the manifestation of sin. Not one’s own personal sin, necessarily, but sin in an abstract way. You, personally and as a Catholic, may view the Adam and Eve story as allegorical, but I bet more American Christians believe it as literal.

** Phil D. **
“Not only is the world queerer than we imagine,
it is queerer than we can imagine.”
–J.B.S. Haldane

32

By the way, one thing I don’t think anybody has mentioned so far is that Cecil went over this topic in his first book. He showed that the first part of Genesis was remarkably similar to an earlier Sumarian myth.

33

When people have problems about taking the Bible figuratively or literally, I just say this: Hey, the Bible was written by human beings. Human beings are flawed and apt to make many misjudgments. Genesis was written by Moses, and Moses was no scholar.
If God were to suddenly talk to me, I would try to write down as much as I could. I might even write about the big bang theory or evolution. Who knows, in 5000 years these theories might be laughable and thought of to come from a superstitious and totally ignorant people.
Like somebody here said, the Bible is no science book. A lot of people today seem to want a sure thing. Nobody seems to want to take things on faith anymore. The only sure thing in life is death and taxes. So take my advice: Don’t try so hard.

34

Sorry, one more thing. If you were living circa 5000 BC, the Bible, or what was there of it, would have probably made more sense than anything else around.

35

I know it’s not a definitive answer, but here is what I gathered from Genesis…

Now, at this point, there is no mention of Adam and Eve having other children, but it is possible. Would then Adam and Eve’s daughter have run off with Cain after he was cast out of God’s presence? Unlikely.

So obviously, Cain found his wife in the land of Nod. Also interesting is the mention that Cain went out ‘from the presence of the LORD’. So much for omnipresence…

An interesting hypothesis is that God created the first Man (i.e. Homo Sapiens), but that other lesser primates were around. I guess Cain just took a fancy for a cute chimpanzee, whereas Abel just prefered his sister…

Alright, so it is hard to take this literally. :slight_smile:

36

We know they existed, and we know they were destroyed. This is more than you were willing to admit when you said: “I don’t believe Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.” I realize that this doesn’t prove how they were destroyed but, to use your Troy example, please remember that most historians thought the Illiad had to be fictional for the sole reason that there was no proof that Troy existed. When Troy was dug up, historians worldwide had to eat crow, and admit that their cheif argument had been refuted. Now that I have refuted your initial belief concerning S&G, you are backpedaling and saying that their existance is irrelevant.

Please show me where I asserted that the creation myth is real. Please notice that, in my earlier post, I specifically did not include Genesis is either the “literal truth” or “obvious symbolism” category. You are attacking a straw man here. Also, I suggest that you follow my advice to Big Iron. It should disabuse you of the notion that there is such a thing as an objective standard of proof. BTW, myth and symbolism are not equivalent. Symbolism is used to make abstract concepts more concrete (ie Revalation). Myth is used to embody and explain a culture’s beliefs.

What’s your definition?

I was not referring to a specific quote here, but to a general trend I’ve noticed in your posts. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I get the impression that you are of an extremely skeptical nature. You will deny that the bible could be right even when there is no clear reason to. Earlier, you denied my assertion that the bible’s historical texts are clearly historical. Why? What do you gain by attacking a culture’s historical records as false? Are there inconsistencies? Sure. Show me two nations who’s histories are in perfect agreement. But if the historical books are not history, then what are they?

“I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms.” -The Secret of Monkey Island

37

Mangeorge,
In response to your two selected verses. The first verse from Leviticus seems to me to state that homosexuality is wrong. In and of itself, this does NOT give me the right to beat someone up just because that individual is homosexual. (Although there are people who call themselves Christian who my disagree with me).
As for your second verse, there is nothing wrong with playing football with a “pigskin” or with eating bacon made from pigs. but, that is because when Jesus came to earth, he declared that all foods are clean, it is not what goes into the body but what comes out from it that makes a person unclean.
(If you asked someone who is Jewish, you might get different answer, particularily to the second part.)

38

Part of me really wants to just avoid getting myself any further into this whole debate. But, my name and veiws have been mentioned so often, it makes it hard to just walk away.
When I said that I interpret the Bible literally, I really meant that to mean that I interpret the first few chapters of Genesis as having occured basically as described in Genesis, rather than as being mythology.

The trouble with comparing scripture to archeological evidence to prove that events either occured as written or did not occur as written is that we all bring so much of our own beliefs into the discussion. Were we able to prove that Sodom and Gomorrah existed at spot X and were destroyed in a manner consistent with Genesis, someone like Phil would still be justified in saying “OK, so the author(s) of Genesis saw that happen or heard about it happening and wrote it down. That still doesn’t PROVE that some omnipotent God destroyed them because they were so full of sin.” (I’ll admit, I don’t know that much about specific archeological finds. Still, this is one of those issues in which it seems like faith and proof are incompatible. What seems like “proof” to one person, seems easily dismissable by another.)

39

[[For the sake of the new people, I should point out that Ian Rey and Phil D are atheists, and probably do not believe that any portions of the bible should be taken seriously.
(If either of you two wish to dispute this, then you’d better have one heck of a good explanation for your posts in previous threads.)]]

Not that I want to encourage ad hominem attacks, or feel that I must answer to Diceman or anyone else for my views, but I will respond for the sake of clarification. As Tom said, I am a Christian (specifically, a Catholic), but not an unthinking one. I do believe that spirituality and religion are benficial to people and to mankind in general. I do not, however, believe that any religion has any more insight into the truth than any other, or that religion is in any way scientific. The purpose of religion is not for dealing with natural matters, but supernatural. Thus, even though I use Christianity in my personal life, I see no reason why the Judeo-Christian mythology is any more relevant than the Norse or the Hopi mythologies, or why any of them should be considered anything more than attempts by ancient people to explain the world around them.

40

[[[We know they existed, and we know they were destroyed.]]]

If they were where you think they were, they were on a fault line. How terribly shocking that they no longer exist.

[[[ This is more than you were willing to admit when you said: “I don’t believe Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.”]]]

Did I really need to specify “by fire and brimstone for being populated by deves”? I thought that was pretty clear. Sheesh.

[[[Now that I have refuted your initial belief concerning S&G, you are backpedaling and saying that their existance is irrelevant.]]]

No, I’m saying that the fact that mythological stories take place in real locations lends zero credence to the idea that said stories are factual. Cripes, Bullfinch’s Mythology mentions Athens, Delphi, Crete and any number of places repeatedly. Did those really happen, too?

[[[Please show me where I asserted that the creation myth is real.]]]

As soon as you show where I said that noone in the Bible can be proven to exist.

[[[You are attacking a straw man here.]]]

Well, tit for tat, you know.

[[[Also, I suggest that you follow my advice to Big Iron. It should disabuse you of the notion that there is such a thing as an objective standard of proof.]]]

Oh, please. There is certainly a level of proof at which logical people are comfortable, and certainly OT mythology, much of OT history (and, incidentally, NT theology) fail to meet that level, overwhelmingly.

[[[{I suspect our definitions of “divine warning” differ significantly.}

What’s your definition?]]]

A concrete physical manifestation of God in person.

[[
[quote:

[[[[Why are people like Phil D so loath to believe that Abraham and Moses existed?]

]]

{{ Please quote any post where I claimed that either of these two men did not exist.}}}

I was not referring to a specific quote here,]]]

Backpedal. You have accused me of asserting that Moses and Abraham did not exist and I’d like some evidence that I said that. Otherwise you can retract that. I have no doubt that most of the NT folks really existed, although I strongly suspect that many of them were other than depicted in the Bible. OT, not only skeptics like me but great men of faith differ as to whether some of them really existed. Adam and Eve almost certainly did not.

[[[but to a general trend I’ve noticed in your posts. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I get the impression that you are of an extremely skeptical nature. You will deny that the bible could be right even when there is no clear reason to.]]]

Right about what, and where are the clear reasons? Is there some manifestly clear reason I’m supposed to believe that there even is a deity, let alone believe the specific theological and/or mythological points of any part of the Bible?

[[[Earlier, you denied my assertion that the
bible’s historical texts are clearly historical. Why?]]]

I note that no contemporaneous cultures, many of whom were meticulous astronomers, made note of the fact that the earth ceased rotating for a day, an event, we can assume, of overwhelming significance. I also suspect that certain figures relating to numbers of armies, numbers of men slain by single figures at once, etc., are so unlikely as to be dismissed as hyperbole. And just what is the current state of thinking on the Exodus? I honestly have no idea.

[[[What do you gain by attacking a culture’s historical records as false? Are there inconsistencies? Sure. Show me two nations who’s histories are in perfect agreement. But if the historical books are not history, then what are they?]]]

Some history mixed with shared myth as a method of cultural unification, just like pretty much anything else of the period.

** Phil D. **
“Not only is the world queerer than we imagine,
it is queerer than we can imagine.”
–J.B.S. Haldane