# Genetic Freedom **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192 "2004-03-29T23:45:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/81 "2004-03-31T04:08:35Z")
> [@](#): > > So who has just enforced their will upon who? Well, as long as the Goobers are allowed to move in without meeting violence, no one hs enforced their will on anyone else. It only becomes a matter of enforcing will if the Ziglets compell the Goobers to move away. No Goober has (in your scenario) forced a Ziglet to _mate_ with a Goober, so the genetic freedom is safe. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/82 "2004-03-31T04:08:53Z")
And in answer to your question, if the Whites attempt to stop other people from moving into “their” country or drinking from “their” fountains, it is the Whites that are doing the oppressing, not those that merely want the right to move where they want and breed however the hell they choose. ---
**Author:** ![castaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@castaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/castaway)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/83 "2004-03-31T04:15:17Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Zagadka](#): > > You deny that, even if we homogenize, we will eventually branch again? I never denied or affirmed that… You should learn to speak in a more friendly way like simply asking a question like, “Even if we homogenize, do you think we will eventually branch again?” Well, the answer is that we will never totally homogenize, and we will branch as long as there isn’t a “top of the pyramid” employing their homogenized workers for all time. Historic Genetic Freedom was due to totally natural forces we all understand the history of how the human race historically branched etc… We will “naturally” branch when we begin to colonize space, of course. There is too much land upon the planet for total homogenization, so we could only achieve relative homogenization. The top of the pyramid will always breed separate from the lower “workers.” In that way their genetics will continue to select for traits which allow them to maintain their elite control. Sure they occassionally breed with the workers when they find a genetic specimen that is suitable. Is this the world you are defending and striving for? Because I don’t know if you’ve noticed or not, that’s the world we have and the polarization between the top and bottom of the pyramid is huge. > [@](#): > > That is terribly naive. You operate on the base presumption that absolute segregation would do a few things: > > 1. Local homogeny > > - This may be true, for about 5 minutes. After that, they would branch again and you’d have each smaller community torn into pieces. Communities that get “torn to pieces,” today, do so for a variety of reasons, sometimes because of immigration. Whenever the peace becomes disrupted, the group can spawn off into two groups… That’s in the essay as well. The essay is quite complete and discusses lots. Groups can rejoin bigger groups, or spawn off into smaller groups. > [@](#): > > 1. Global diversity > > - This may indeed be achieved by your plan, no denying that. HooAhhhh, mark one down for me. > [@](#): > > 1. World peace > > - This is the most absurd part. It would take about 15 minutes (given 10 minutes for people to start killing each other) to look outside their walls and covet someone else’s land/resources/women/whatever. Given the segregation and isolation, this would result in ethnic warfare on a scale never before seen. You sure have a negative outlook. Education could solve this warlike problem you describe above but, really, I don’t think it would be that bad. Groups that are “out of line” would be suppressed, groups that are peaceful, would be part of the world community of peace lovers, etc… groups would come and go, spawn off and rejoin, etc… in a continuous cycle of beauty and human life. Total freedom for both individuals and groups of people. What a world it could be! Governments would no longer be able to pass laws to suppress Genetic Freedom! The United Nations already has written in it’s “constitution” a world law of such a kind. Total suppression of Genetic Freedom worldwide. > [@](#): > > Still their choice if they want to fark you or not. G.F. for both individuals AND groups… individuals can do whatever they want, so can groups of individuals. > [@](#): > > Cite that 90% of the world’s media is monopoly controlled, please. From what media source? yeah… neat how that works isn’t it. Once control is taken, information doesn’t flow too freely now does it. But I just pulled the 90% figure from my head… I don’t have any exact number. We all know that Jews own most media outlets in the US and europe. That has been true for about 50 to 100 years. Now, from an ethnic perspective, that is a monopoly control. If Christians owned 90% of media outlets in this country, guess what, a lot of things wouldn’t be shown on the media that are currently shown. It would be a completely different (and totally delusional) reality when we woke up each morning. If Japanese owned 90% of the media outlets in the United States, who knows what it would be like, but it would still be an ethnic monopoly. If ethnic Germans owned 90% of the Media outlets in the United States, Well, I can assure you that you would not know what the Holocuast was - something the Jews have taught us about very, very well. Ethnic monopolies are a nemesis of Genetic Freedom. With Genetic Freedom, many different ethnic groups would own and control media outlets. Thusly, no one group would be able to abuse their media power. Media is the most powerful force upon the planet towards influencing human minds. While I think Chrsitianity is delusional and closed minded, I do appreciate that Mel Gibson actually broke through the Media Monopoly with his movie (It took him about a year to break the bubble). And while I don’t particularly like it when Rush says “environmental Wacko” I do appreciate that he, at least on the radio, has somewhat broken through the monopoly. You would be amazed at how well Rush understands media control, disinformation, and all the rest. If you really listen to hiim, you would be amazed. Unfortunately, since he’s on the “conservative Christian” side, many people automatically don’t listen, by default. What many don’t get is that, even though Christians are brainwashed and delusional, they are also the nemesis to the current world elite… It’s quite fascinating when you truly understand world power and observe all the players. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/84 "2004-03-31T04:20:11Z")
So your basic point, **castaway** , seems to be that people should be legally allowed to discriminate on racial grounds in housing transactions on the public market. All the “Genetic Freedom” arguments are pretty much window dressing, not substantially different from the “freedom of association” arguments that earlier segregationists were using back in the 1960’s. As I explained in an earlier post, what you advocate is unconstitutional because other individuals’ right to equal protection of the laws in the governmentally regulated public sphere trumps your right to discriminate on racial grounds. You have not responded to that point except by a passing allusion to what you call the “media rule” and “proximity rule”. If you want to convince anybody of the validity of your position, you’re going to have to explain logically **why** you think those “rules” invalidate the above rationale for making housing discrimination illegal. (And if you want to convince the courts and/or the majorities required to enact a constitutional amendment, you’d better have a **really** good explanation.) Just vaguely referring back to the “rules” doesn’t cut it. \*Perhaps in your group, you would “HAVE” to do that [run genomic analyses on all individuals]. You sure do have a tyrannical mindset \* You misunderstood me; what I said was, in effect, “ **if** you want to preserve genetic uniqueness by maintaining separate breeding groups, then you would **have** to run genomic analyses on all individuals”. And if that was your goal, you **would** have to do so, because you couldn’t identify people’s actual genetic kinship in any other way. There’s no “tyranny” there except the tyranny of unyielding biological fact. ---
**Author:** ![castaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@castaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/castaway)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/85 "2004-03-31T04:21:27Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Zagadka](#): > > Your assumptions fall into the same pit that anarchy does. Given absolute anarchy, humans will eventually bind together for a) safety, b) companionship, c) resources, and d) power. Well, some local freedom some larger governmental laws, some world laws… it’s all good. > [@](#): > > You forget that we already had a period where we were largely genetically segregated. Know what happened? Everyone farked like bunnies, expanded, started killing each other, forming alliances, building kingdoms, socially revolting and forming democracies, and then you have today. So whaa. Dude, it’s called learning from history… we learn from the past. Genetic Freedom wasn’t the cause of these problems, ignorance was. Genetic Freedom could work as well or as poorly as the intelligence or ignorance of the poeple implementing it. Obviously. > [@](#): > > You can’t have a freedom to deny people freedom. You are more than free to start your ethnic cult today. Your problem is that you feel like you should be able to impose your ideas on everyone, and can’t. I have a freedom to NOT do what you want me to do. You still don’t get it - If me and a 10,000 others are living on some plot of land, and you come in and impose yourself upon us, you are the one who has taken OUR freedom away… You can do whatever you want, just not in our little community. That’s the balance between individual and group freedom. ---
**Author:** ![castaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@castaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/castaway)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/86 "2004-03-31T04:25:00Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Zagadka](#): > > Cite? Look it up yourself my friend. This is a fundamental principle of biology of all genetic life upon the planet… the more diversity, the better for survival. I’d be happy to “show” you where to look, it’s just that I have limited time… > [@](#): > > Your right to genetic freedom does not trump my right to, well, every other freedom. never said it did… > [@](#): > > You merely want to make society smaller, replace government with tyrrany of the majority, and all thought with your own monopoly. Geesh, hardly. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/87 "2004-03-31T04:26:33Z")
[QUOTE=castaway] > [@](#): > > Look it up yourself my friend. Um, good argument. > [@](#): > > Geesh, hardly. Then what form of government do you propose? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/88 "2004-03-31T04:29:18Z")
> [@castaway](#): > > Well, some local freedom some larger governmental laws, some world laws… it’s all good. How do you intend to enforce “world laws?” > [@](#): > > Dude, it’s called learning from history… we learn from the past. Genetic Freedom wasn’t the cause of these problems, ignorance was. Genetic Freedom could work as well or as poorly as the intelligence or ignorance of the poeple implementing it. Obviously. _smiles_ Obviously. How do you intend to prevent this? > [@](#): > > You still don’t get it - If me and a 10,000 others are living on some plot of land, and you come in and impose yourself upon us, you are the one who has taken OUR freedom away… You can do whatever you want, just not in our little community. That’s the balance between individual and group freedom. What if one of those 10,000 imposes themselves on you? What if there is a schism in the group? ---
**Author:** ![castaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@castaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/castaway)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/89 "2004-03-31T04:29:49Z")
> [@](#): > > You seem to have two majot points. > > 1. This whole segregated genetic freedom thing is better for humanity. You continue to miss it entirely… it’s not that easy to get, granted. Simple. The world is populated by clones… Should that clone world have laws and media that support that concept of genetic freedom or suppress it? Literally, the rest of what you said is caused by you lack of understanding of the concept. Keep repeating the clone example to yourself, and eventually you’ll get it. It will be like a warm blanket over your very existence… you’ll see it, you’ll understand it. Your mind will be free from it’s current prison (the Media Matrix). ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/90 "2004-03-31T04:32:47Z")
> [@castaway](#): > > You continue to miss it entirely… it’s not that easy to get, granted. Simple. The world is populated by clones… Should that clone world have laws and media that support that concept of genetic freedom or suppress it? Why would a world of genetic equals have any use for genetic segregation? It sounds to me like your whole point is that human settlements should be limited in size and segregated. I don’t see what that has to do with genetics or freedom. ---
**Author:** ![castaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@castaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/castaway)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/91 "2004-03-31T04:43:56Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. (voluntarily) Segregated communitees promote different genetic lines. > > Though I am sure you will keep very different lines with your method, it is happening anyway. Constant genetic drift occurs the workd over, and the larger human populations only make it happen more. Genes will change and people will develop whether or not they are sectioned off into their own homelands. > > Also, there is the problem of the nation. No current nation could exist if town sized (that is what they would have to be as genetic differences would be too great in anything larger) populations do not intermix. It would quickly lead to fractionalization of the country with different sections deciding they no longer have enough in common with the rest of people to remain part of the same Country. And what’s wrong with that? In a truly free world, groups could break off from the larger government and form the tax laws or other ways of living that they are happy with. We, the people, have not even begun to explore the possiblities of freedom. There is so much potential on this planet, but so little time to harness it. World tyranny is not only coming, but it’s here, now. The fact that you perceive yourself as free, proves the total dominate success of this particular type of tyranny… its financial tyranny with monopoly media to support it’s existence throughout each generation. We are raised, to take out loans, be confused, make poor decisions, then create more kids to repeat the cycle. The dumber the kids are, on a genetic level, the better for the top of the pyramid. What you may call “conspiracy” is day to day reality. There is no conspiracy to take over the world. The world was taken long ago. > [@](#): > > So now you have many small yet close in relative proximity communities that cannot intermix. That’s totally false. They can intermix percisely the amount that the individual decisions want to, and as the group decisions allow. Why don’t you get that? > [@](#): > > Some will do bettert and become richer while others will not. When you have the posibility of doing well for yourself and advancing enough to be able to improve your environment it imposes a certain passivity. When, however, you are disallowed from ever moving into the upper echelons of society you are begging for at the least crime and more likely war. See above… Son, we already have that world… I’m trying to change it! > [@](#): > > You have said that I am conditioned by the media to think this is White Nationalism. In fact I had not heard of the concept until about a month ago when a bunch of them invaded this board. Well, I did not know that. Hey, at least I’m a positive influence on them. However, the few times I’ve seen some of them attempt to discuss this concept, they usually butcher it with racist ideology and then it’s a moot point. Doesn’t matter to me. I know I’m spreading truth. > [@](#): > > I am not rejecting your concepts because I do not understand them (though I admit that I do not understand much of the essay as it is barely in English and completely incoherent), but specifically because I do understand them. You won’t be able to quote “incoherent” portions of the essay. I could explain each and every line, then you would have to take back what you just said because you would say, “Oh, that’s what it means.” it’s not easy to understand, not even close. I know this. > [@](#): > > You want to restric people’s freedom of movement, specifically where they live. We do not believe in setting up ghettos for every ethnic group in the country because we have seen where this leads. It is a very basic principle of a free country that people be allowed freedom of movement. The essay addresses some of this, you missed it… you didn’t comprehend it, yet it was there and clear. People do not truly try to understand what they are reading. People read with a closed mind simply by accessing their own memories and overlaying them onto what they are reading. Reading with an open mind is a skill that must be developed. > [@](#): > > As it is now you can still go through with your plan even without new laws. Just get a bunch of friends together, move to a new community together (or one that is dominated by whichever group you like) and advertise for others to do the same. If someone you don’t want moves in take a page from the Amish and shun them. Believe me, they will move. You can make life very uncomfortable for them without breaking any laws at all. That is a totally sick solution you just proposed… sickening. Genetic Freedom is a fundamental human right. ---
**Author:** ![castaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@castaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/castaway)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/92 "2004-03-31T04:47:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, as long as the Goobers are allowed to move in without meeting violence, no one hs enforced their will on anyone else. It only becomes a matter of enforcing will if the Ziglets compell the Goobers to move away. No Goober has (in your scenario) forced a Ziglet to _mate_ with a Goober, so the genetic freedom is safe. Excuse me, but the Goobers weren’t allowed to move in to begin with so how could they be compelled to “move away.” That’s the balance between individual and group freedom. Did you read the Proximity Rule, it proves that Genetic Freedom is infringed upon by simple proximity… Here it is: Sexual hormones rule over all else for reproductively compatible genetic life forms, and little intelligence is required for this hormonal power to rule. The probability of a Japanese male mating with a Japanese female is much higher if that Japanese male is in a community that is 98% Japanese, than if that community is only 5% Japanese. This suggests that if these Japanese do not maintain their own “district based community”, statistics will eventually lead to their particular phenotypic morphology going extinct, in favor of a “uniform ethnic blend” as the various cultures and genetics are combined. Expanding this argument out suggests that the current laws of non-discrimination in housing, which on the face of it, seem to be promoting diversity, actually encourage ethnic diversity to diminish over time. During the transition period, ethnic diversity mildly increases as unique new human morphologies are created by all the ethnicities mixing with one another. Then after reaching the top of the ethnic diversity graph, a sharp decline occurs as phenotypic diversity diminishes in favor of a single uniform looking ethnic group. There are many current and historical examples of this around the world. The ethnic diversity graph will approach the flat line (one) for any given country or “land area” that has laws and media/education which encourage current day (2003) concepts of “diversity.” While it is unlikely and nearly impossible for a global ethnic diversity graph to reach one given the size of the Earth, to what extent it approaches one time will tell. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/93 "2004-03-31T04:49:27Z")
**castaway:** _If me and a 10,000 others are living on some plot of land, and you come in and impose yourself upon us, you are the one who has taken OUR freedom away… You can do whatever you want, just not in our little community._ Nope. If your “little” community is participating in the publicly-accessible housing market, you do not have the “freedom” to discriminate against members of the public on racial grounds in your transactions. Here’s a solution for you: Keep your community creation out of the housing market. You can create as large and as exclusive a community as you wish, as long as it remains on the strictly personal and private level and involves no commercial transactions (I’m not any kind of expert on anti-discrimination law, but I think that’s right). No rent, no mortgage, no membership fees, no financial exchanges of any kind. If you just acquire your property and then let your 10,000 “personal friends” who just happen to be of your preferred racial type live on it for free, as far as I’m aware, you are completely within your legal rights. Once you want to make your “community” part of the same housing market that serves the general public, though, you no longer have the right to exclude any part of the public from participating in it on racial grounds. (Slightly off-topic musing: Probably the most widespread misconception about individual rights is “I Can Do Whatever I Damn Well Please With My Own Goddamn Property.” Very widely believed, but in fact, false. Commercial transactions generally do **not** fall within the category of protected individual rights where it’s unconstitutional for the government to make any rules about what you can and cannot do.) \*But I just pulled the 90% figure from my head… I don’t have any exact number. We all know that Jews own most media outlets in the US and europe. That has been true for about 50 to 100 years. \* Oh, boy. **castaway** , if you’re going to hang around Great Debates for any length of time (which I somehow doubt), you’re going to have to learn that this kind of argument isn’t good enough. Just pulling figures from your, er, head does not constitute evidentiary support for your positions. Nor does prefacing your unsupported assertions with the words “We all know that”. When somebody asks you to back up an assertion, you must either back it up **credibly** , with data from a source generally regarded as reliable, or back down. If you don’t do either, everyone will simply assume that you don’t have adequate support for your argument and don’t have the honesty to admit it. Somewhat harsh and uncharitable, I admit, but those are the rules we play by here in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![castaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@castaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/castaway)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/94 "2004-03-31T04:49:32Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > **castaway** , this is what you’ve demonstrated so far: > > 1. You are a paranoid conspiracy theorist > > 2. You do not comprehend history > > 3. You do not comprehend culture > > 4. You do not comprehend social economics > > 5. You do not comprehend genetics > > 6. You do not comprehend basic civics > > 7. You do not comprehend law > > There is likely much more you do not understand, but I’m tired of making the list. It would be easier to list what you DO know: > > 1. Well, you know how to type, unfortunately… > > 2. > > … > > Eh, nevermind. > > Even on a local population level with 1,000 individuals, your experiment would go horribly wrong, much less global. As most idealists do, you have absolutely no comprehension of either what it would take to start your program, or of how you would maintain it. You are just plain confused… not your fault. ---
**Author:** ![castaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@castaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/castaway)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/95 "2004-03-31T04:50:37Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Why would a world of genetic equals have any use for genetic segregation? > > It sounds to me like your whole point is that human settlements should be limited in size and segregated. I don’t see what that has to do with genetics or freedom. If you get it some day… look me up, I’ll be happy to talk then. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/96 "2004-03-31T04:53:15Z")
> [@castaway](#): > > And what’s wrong with that? In a truly free world, groups could break off from the larger government and form the tax laws or other ways of living that they are happy with. Oh, so you ARE an anarchist. > [@](#): > > We, the people, have not even begun to explore the possiblities of freedom. There is so much potential on this planet, but so little time to harness it. World tyranny is not only coming, but it’s here, now. The fact that you perceive yourself as free, proves the total dominate success of this particular type of tyranny… its financial tyranny with monopoly media to support it’s existence throughout each generation. We are raised, to take out loans, be confused, make poor decisions, then create more kids to repeat the cycle. The dumber the kids are, on a genetic level, the better for the top of the pyramid. And your religion would break that cycle… how? By creating locally dependent micro-cities governed by tyrrany of the corruptable majority? > [@](#): > > What you may call “conspiracy” is day to day reality. There is no conspiracy to take over the world. The world was taken long ago. Sure. > [@](#): > > That’s totally false. They can intermix percisely the amount that the individual decisions want to, and as the group decisions allow. Why don’t you get that? Oh, we get it. We just think it is insane. > [@](#): > > See above… Son, we already have that world… I’m trying to change it! … to a world where everyone observes your belief structure and submits to it. > [@](#): > > Doesn’t matter to me. I know I’m spreading truth. So do they. > [@](#): > > That is a totally sick solution you just proposed… sickening. Genetic Freedom is a fundamental human right. Says who? So is the right to settle, travel, free enterprise, fark who you want, and own private land. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/97 "2004-03-31T04:54:24Z")
> [@castaway](#): > > You are just plain confused… not your fault. Nice refute. How about we discuss social economics or civics, then? You seem to be avoiding each of those questions. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/98 "2004-03-31T04:56:43Z")
> [@castaway](#): > > If you get it some day… look me up, I’ll be happy to talk then. Why would I want you to explain it if I “get it?” What is so wrong with you describing what is different about your ideology from restricted town population and segregation? What do you do when there is population growth? What happens when there is a schism in the town between southies and northies? What happens when the town votes to allow everyone it? What kind of government is this, anyway? And what does this have to do with genetics? ---
**Author:** ![castaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c0e974/32.png) [@castaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/castaway)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/99 "2004-03-31T04:58:12Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Kimstu](#): > > So your basic point, **castaway** , seems to be that people should be legally allowed to discriminate on racial grounds in housing transactions on the public market. > > All the “Genetic Freedom” arguments are pretty much window dressing, not substantially different from the “freedom of association” arguments that earlier segregationists were using back in the 1960’s. It’s expected that you will make that association. Eventually your mind will grow beyond that and realize that Genetic Freedom is quite beyond any of the constrains and restrictions of the past. > [@](#): > > As I explained in an earlier post, what you advocate is unconstitutional because other individuals’ right to equal protection of the laws in the governmentally regulated public sphere trumps your right to discriminate on racial grounds. The constitution will change. Then it won’t be unconstitutional. > [@](#): > > You have not responded to that point except by a passing allusion to what you call the “media rule” and “proximity rule”. If you want to convince anybody of the validity of your position, you’re going to have to explain logically **why** you think those “rules” invalidate the above rationale for making housing discrimination illegal. (And if you want to convince the courts and/or the majorities required to enact a constitutional amendment, you’d better have a **really** good explanation.) Just vaguely referring back to the “rules” doesn’t cut it. Proximity rule: Sexual hormones rule over all else for reproductively compatible genetic life forms, and little intelligence is required for this hormonal power to rule. The probability of a Japanese male mating with a Japanese female is much higher if that Japanese male is in a community that is 98% Japanese, than if that community is only 5% Japanese. This suggests that if these Japanese do not maintain their own “district based community”, statistics will eventually lead to their particular phenotypic morphology going extinct, in favor of a “uniform ethnic blend” as the various cultures and genetics are combined. Expanding this argument out suggests that the current laws of non-discrimination in housing, which on the face of it, seem to be promoting diversity, actually encourage ethnic diversity to diminish over time. During the transition period, ethnic diversity mildly increases as unique new human morphologies are created by all the ethnicities mixing with one another. Then after reaching the top of the ethnic diversity graph, a sharp decline occurs as phenotypic diversity diminishes in favor of a single uniform looking ethnic group. There are many current and historical examples of this around the world. The ethnic diversity graph will approach the flat line (one) for any given country or “land area” that has laws and media/education which encourage current day (2003) concepts of “diversity.” While it is unlikely and nearly impossible for a global ethnic diversity graph to reach one given the size of the Earth, to what extent it approaches one time will tell. Media Rule: Education and Media can either increase or decrease the probability of members of the same ethnic group selecting one another as mates; they have a huge impact. Our current educational philosophy is to teach everybody to “not think about genetics” and generally frown on openly discussing the concept of “maintaining and enhancing the genetic lines of your ethnic group.” Thusly, the probability is increased for them to select partners outside their existing ethnic groups. This is the educational trend within most of the first world countries. It is reasonable to agree that each ethnic group has a right to fully guide their media and educational outlets. > [@](#): > > You misunderstood me; what I said was, in effect, “ **if** you want to preserve genetic uniqueness by maintaining separate breeding groups, then you would **have** to run genomic analyses on all individuals”. You can base genetic freedom on nothing more than appearance… so you are just plain wrong here. It’s about phenotypic probability. You can also do these tests, if you really want to. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192/100 "2004-03-31T05:16:28Z")
**castaway:** _It’s expected that you will make that association [between “Genetic Freedom” rhetoric and earlier segregationist “freedom of association” rhetoric]. Eventually your mind will grow beyond that and realize that Genetic Freedom is quite beyond any of the constrains and restrictions of the past._ 🙂 Look, if you want me to change my mind about something, you have to rationally **convince** me. Just issuing a prediction that my mind will somehow spontaneously change is not an adequate argument! _The constitution will change. Then [racial discrimination in housing] won’t be unconstitutional._ Fair enough, but that means that you’re going to have to make a truly convincing case for **why** we should change the Constitution. _(Proximity) “Expanding this argument out suggests that the current laws of non-discrimination in housing, which on the face of it, seem to be promoting diversity, actually encourage ethnic diversity to diminish over time.” […] (Media) “It is reasonable to agree that each ethnic group has a right to fully guide their media and educational outlets.”_ Sorry, but this doesn’t add up to a convincing case for overturning anti-discrimination laws. All it indicates is that some people like ethnic separatism, which we already knew, and that some people think ethnic separatism will have a beneficial effect on human genetic diversity. But just pointing out that discrimination can have some beneficial effects doesn’t constitute a compelling case for making it legal. The old pro-segregation “freedom of association” arguments also identified some potential benefits of discrimination. The legislatures and courts still ended up deciding that those potential benefits didn’t **outweigh** the disadvantages of legal discrimination, specifically its damaging infringement of the individual right to equal protection of the laws. Similarly, there’s no reason to think that courts or legislatures will conclude that your “Genetic Freedom” argument trumps the individual right to be free from discrimination in the public sphere. From all the evidence you’ve shown so far, “Genetic Freedom” is just the same old whine in a new bottle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-freedom/237192.md?page=6)