Genetic Motherfucking Drooling Morons

The BBQ Pit
21

Pardon my ignorance of genetics but I was told by several corn farmers (20+ years ago!) that you couldn’t actually save (modern) seed from one year to the next anyway. Reportedly you get a fine crop once but the next year the yields/acre were WAY down. This was supposedly due to hybridization and nothing to do with GM in the sense it’s presently used.
Another thing is the pollen distribution aspect. Whether or not a farmer uses a specific herbicide to take advantage of it, he WILL end up with GM corn/canola/other wind-pollinated plant growing on his property. How in hell is a Monsanto or other provider of GM plants going to control this?
Endless lawsuits are definately not the right answer. After reading the MotherJones article you cited, I have a sneaking suspicion that the farmer knew EXACTLY what he was planting but did it anyway. Nevertheless, with the present atmosphere of mistrust toward “frankenfood” I would bet that the farmer gets a larger chunk of Monsanto’s money than they did of his.
As a final note, you should come to Saudi some time with a GM variety of wheat that could withstand a drier climate or was salt tolerant. People here are waking up to the fact that endlessly pumping water out of the ground is going to abruptly stop.
Best Regards.

Testy.

P.S. Sorry, I know this is the pit but I have to work on my ranting ability. S

22

I believe that is generally the case, depending on what corn you’re using. And yes, it has nothing to do with modern gene engineering.

That’s a bit of a stickler. Removal is an option. Raise awareness, make sure you have assets in place to compensate and remove.

Per the Motherjones article, I do also. But also, Monsanto has to play in the actual environment, not the law firms best case scenarios. Terrible thing about lawyers, they’re not trained in considering non-legal or extra-legal concerns. Of course that’s not their job. However, as a manager, you gotta think, do I go for the highest gain legal strategy even if it may contribute to damanging my market? Think Tylenol, early 80s as the counter example to Monsanto.

They’re fucking morons. The lot of them. Believe me, I know the water profiles for the region. Trying to grow wheat in their climate is a stunning waste of resources. Their groundwater reserves may run out within a generation or two, depending on usage levels. It’s just pointless. Yemen is even more fucked. Really, truly fucked. They * may * face absolute water shortages in our lifetime, given current groundwater extraction rates, population growth rates and current infrastructural issues. Absolute meaning not enough water to cover basic needs, never mind quality issues. And as you know, they’re poor as shit.

Now, their rich brethren, they face what? Same issues, although as long as they have oil they can afford to run desalinization. But are they paying attention to the issues? Pop control? Water conservation. Nah, its a fucking party man(*).

I’ll never fucking understand the fucking Gulfies. Bunch of fucking morons.

Thanks, Egyptians annoy the fuck out of me, but at least the market here makes some degree of sense to serve.

(*: yeah yeah, some changes recently, but…)

23

Well. The forensic marvel has reduced my political philosophy to shambles.

Look, dipshit, it doesn’t count as knee jerking just because you don’t happen to agree with it. It so happens that I’ve been involved with this “knee-jerk opinion” for the last three years, ever since my activist career began. (Why do people always think that arguments on the board begin and end with them?)

If this is a knee jerk, I’m Stockwell Day.

24

To be frank, I’m tired of activists and their leaping to conclusions. I’m tired of activists and half-baked opinions.

Regarding the issue at hand. It’s not clear there is a miscarriage of justice. It’s not clear that Monsanto is factually or even morally wrong. So no “appalling injustice,” despite the activist fucking spin doctors claims. What is clear is Monsanto handed unnecessary ammo to the ignoramuses who can’t tell a fucking gene from their ass and who use the term frankenfoods and the like.

Like the morons at Greenpeace.

I’m fucking tired of the lot of them, and their kneejerk reactions in regards to things which they don’t fucking understand from econ to biotech.

It may be the five fucking days of fucking sandstorms has made me more of an asshole than I normally am, but I stand by my statement and I repeat, take your implication and fuck off.

25

What implication? I’m not implying anything; I’m stating it outright. Monsanto is being unjust. To throw a farmer out of business for something that blew onto his goddamn field is simply not on, whatever the PR implications may be. Unless you’re going to deny this assertion, I suggest you shut it.

26

What is it about GM that causes the “frankenfood syndrome?” Sorry, I loathe the philosophy behind it but love the term. LOL

Anyway, by “Frankenfood syndrome” I mean the hysteria that seems to affect people who, as you mention, don’t know the difference between genes and jeans. These people continue to require proof of a negative before accepting GM. Without such proof, which obviously cannot be provided, demonstrations, letter writing campaigns, boycotts, and more direct activities, continue.

A problem is that it’s NOT only hysterical fools, but those who should know better. (Prince Charles for example.) So, do you think that those who SHOULD know better are doing this out of genuine ignorance? Or are they simply using an ignorant fear of the unknown to generate popularity? Education is a great thing but I doubt the willingness of most of the hysterical types to actually spend the time. Assuming the motive is more sinister, what is to be done then?

Regards.

Testy

27

Sorry Matt…I listened to the NPR report on this…was Monsanto stupid for pursuing this issue? Perhaps in light of the fact that some people are silly enough to actually think that bio engineering our food supply is ALWAYS a scary thing. It’s really easy for us fat Americans to be worried about what we eat. Try living off a handful of rice and rat meat somewhere else.

The NPR report…

Evidently the JUDGE in this case realized what some of us don’t. First of all that modern day farmers are not idiots in overalls and straw hats. Certainly this guy wasn’t too dumb. The first year he determined that his canola crop had been impregnated by the nicer Roundup ready variety. Probably by spraying the damned thing. (Simplest thing to do.) Then he harvested the fancy plants for seed. Planted them the next year and sold the harvest. Gee, he knows, he knows that what he had was a patented product. HE RAISES CANOLA! So you think he doesn’t have any idea about seeds, herbicides, and pesticides he needs to increase his yield? Yeah, that’s it, and the judge realized this too.

Now you have highlighted the very issue that Colly brought up…people with knee jerk reactions. (Which I had too until I started looking at the issue a little.) And the PR mistake of giving the opponents of the biotech industry something else to arm themselves.

I sympathize with your concern Colly…hey I hope it’s some consolation that the pharmaceutical industry also shoots it’s self in the foot a lot.

Oh yeah, thanks for the links. They lead to more than just this issue.

Needs2know

28

No, it’s not. Read some of the motherfucking background, not just the fucking activists spin. That’s I have to say.

29

Okay, I can’t actually restrain myself. I’m sure I’m going to regret this, but Matt has fucking pissed me off.

(A) Knee Jerk: Your reaction is the motherfucking definition of knee jerk, fucking Stockwell Day. Non-knee jerk might be found in my reaction, where although I do have a vested interest in the issue, I try to look at both sides justly, allowing that Monsanto might be factually wrong, that the farmer may very well be right. Even though if one looks at the non-partisan in-depth reporting on this, including but not limited to the Mother Jones article, one begins to see how the farmer’s story breaks down. One begins to suspect he knew very well what he was doing. One begins to suspect he was in fact “pirating” the Monsanto seeds. That is wrong. Whatever, I have reasonable doubts, I concentrated on the knowns.

(B) Facts: Inconvenient little mother fuckers that they are, tend to be useful. Above all ** rational ** non-knee-jerk analysis of those facts. Facts found in the above mentioned stories — left out in the fucking “* activists’ *” spin doctoring — (a) suggest that it was more than a question of just some blowing in (b) note that honest Joe farmerboy collected the seeds, after spraying. He knew what they were, claims of ignorance to the contrary.

I am capable of being critical of both my sources and even my colleagues. As often as possible I try not to fall into the “bad guys” “good guys” thinking.

Your fucking pseudo-pious intervention fucking pisses me off because it’s quite clear that (a) you can’t be troubled to question your fucking sources (b) that you’re willing to state that all ** I ** fucking care about is the motherfucking PR --yeah I ** too ** have a history of concern in re these cases outside this motherfucking board. I fucking resent that in a big way. No one here cares, but I work fucking hard to do things I think will help this area in the end.

Like I said before, I fucking tired of dumb-fuck so called activists who don’t have an understand of the most basic facts of economics and biology dissing my industry without good call. I’m the first one to criticize when I think we fucked up and I’m perfectly willing to take the lumps when we do, but I don’t appreciate distortion. The rice thing is a perfect example. I will not discuss the rice issue for professional reasons, you can pursue this via the links, but I see that as injustice far more than some yokel pirate getting put out of business, even if it is a huge PR disaster for us (as an industry).

30

Ok Mr. Collonsbury…chill a little. Even as small brained and uneducated as I can figure this out eventually. Perhaps Matt will too.

I know I don’t have all the info on the rice thing. What I have learned is that it started out like so many other great ideas that get twisted around during development. It was an idea with a noble outcome in mind. A way to bring a better quality of nourishment to a hungry world. Even now I don’t think with all the PR mess that it is a lost cause. I know it isn’t a cure all either.

It never occurred to me to completely distrust the biotech industry. (I think I dislike the pharamaceutical industry a little more.) Don’t people realize that man and nature have been playing around with the gene pool for centuries. I think the term “bioengineering” scares people. It conjures up images of Audrey Two and Frankenstein’s monster. It’s rubbish! Man has been cross pollenating, hybridizing, and manipulating crop yields for centuries. Hell, he’s played around with breeding stock, including his own genes. What’s so evil about wanting to grow a bigger tomato? Absolutely nothing. So a few years ago we couldn’t cross a rice plant with a jonquil and get “golden rice”. (Which BTW, is more nutritious than ordinary rice. Something that MOST of the world relies on for a primary food source.) But had man not manipulated crop yields then there would to this day been a lot more hungry people than we already have, actually dead people. Our ability to increase yields, manipulate size, and nutritional value have saved lives.

What little I have been reading lately about this industry scares me a lot less than it excites me. And even though it may not be fair to constantly compare it to the pharmaceutical industry, it does seem to be a little less ruthless in it’s pursuit of profit.

I think the interested folks here at the board will be able to see the value in what this industry is trying to do once they look at the facts.

Needs2know…P.S. Matt is usually very open-minded about things isn’t he? I don’t keep up well with everyone but I think that’s the general impression he usually gives.

31

Um, that is what one DOES when one is a farmer. One collects seeds from one year’s harvest to plant the next one. If genetically modified plants have spread to one’s field, they get mixed into the seed stock.

I admit my ignorance on this one. How does one tell a genetically-modified canola plant from a non-genetically-modified canola plant? Does it have little Monsanto logoes on its leaves? Bolts coming out of its stalk? Must one scrutinize every plant in one’s field in fear of finding a patented volunteer?

How exactly does one prevent seeds from blowing into one’s field?

32

Matt, did you read the links Collounsbury provided? While it’s possible that the first year Farmer Brown didn’t know that the seeds were Magic Beans, by year two he certainly knew, even assuming that he didn’t know their provenance. Of course, that assumption strains credulity, since this particular strain of canola has received so much publicity since its creation.

And as for your point about gathering seed: that’s not how Western agriculture has worked for decades, perhaps even a good century or more since the Mendelian revolution. It is how non-Western agriculture continues to work, because it enables people to continue to live outside a cash economy.

And in your years of activism you haven’t heard of this? I’m a lawyer in Manhattan, for chrissakes, and yet somehow I’ve managed to learn this just in reading the newspaper.

This is a major part of why I don’t respect very much in self-described “activism.” It seems activists seek to feel first, second and third, and begin thinking only when all other possible responses have been exhausted, if ever. Once started, the thinking quickly collapses into solipsism, which in turn compresses into a singularity of ego. The desperate need to appear virtuous, to concern oneself solely with an amorphous definition of justice, is just one symptom.

This is not to defend Monsanto, or even GM agriculture generally. It is simply to point out that activists (particularly of the soi-disant “public interest” variety) are at least as corrupted by ego as their opponents are by money. In fact, money is merely one manifestation of ego - it works for some, but not for those who require the validation of knowing that they are living on the side of the angels.

“The vanity of the selfless, even those who practice utmost humility, is boundless.” Eric Hoffer, The True Believer, p. 15. Harper & Row 1956/1989 edition.

33

Just to spell out the spraying aspect a bit more clearly: the farmer sprayed his field in preparation for planting. All the plants (weeds) should have died, since that was the intent: prepare a cleared field. Instead, some plants sprouted among the dying weeds. Those plants were, in fact, canola seedlings–the same sort of plants that his neighbors were growing with the little advertising boards they all put up advising their neighbors which seed and lot they had planted.

At that point, the farmer had to have known that the plants that had survived his killing spray were “volunteers” from his neighbors’ farms. Allowing the volunteers to grow might have been acceptable. Harvesting the seeds for his own use was clearly not.

34

This should be in GD…

Collounsbury - I think I should start by saying lighten the fuck up and stop acting like such a complete asshole. Calling someone “Stockwell Day” or referring to Mr. Scmeiser a “yokel pirate” is pretty fucking low and I would expect more from one of your inestimable intelligence. Is every Saudi a “fucking moron”? That is a broad brush you are painting with.

This situation provides ample reason for people to diss your beloved industry. Some of your associates seem to have gone after the wrong “yokel” and they’ll pay for it.

Your priorities seem a little skewed to me too. This bad PR is killing us… boo fucking hoo. I would be more concerned that this case might set a precedent for large biotech corporations to fuck over more people in the future. It makes your chosen industry look like a bunch of fucking agricultural gangsters doesn’t it? Use our product or we’ll sue your ass right out of business could be their slogan.

And why don’t you want to discuss the golden rice thing?

Schmeiser is a 70 year old farmer in Saskatchewan where farmers have been going broke for the last decade. His crop got infected with foreign genetic material and all he did was grow his crops without taking advantage of the benefits the new canola provided. He probably harvested as much as he did the year before using his own methods. Now he has to give Monsanto a cut of his profits because Monsanto fucked up. Does anyone believe that Schmeiser benefitted to the tune of an extra $85,000 ? I would like to see if there was any improvement or decline in Mr. Schmeiser’s average yield of canola after his seed stock was contaminated.

I think Schmeiser has a hell of a case against Monsanto as the seed he has been using for years has been irrevocably altered against his will. Who says his seed wasn’t as good? Scmeiser should also sue his neighbours, especially the pricks who ratted him out. Perhaps they thought he was getting something for free that they had to pay for. Of course we have to remember that Schmeiser hadn’t asked Monsanto for any seed. I hope he buries them all with their canola seeds.

You can be fined here if you allow weeds such a dandelions to grow and spread their seeds to neighbouring property. Isn’t this what happened with the Monsanto canola? Just because my neighbour finds dandelions pretty doesn’t mean I appreciate them as much as he does.

Collounsbury - Here’s a project for you. If you want to protect your patented crops why don’t you engineer them so they can’t accidentally infect neighbouring crops? This would demonstrate responsibile genetic engineering and you’ll make millions if you can figure this one out. Maybe you can find a solution for my neighbour’s dandelions while you’re at it.

"Allowing the volunteers to grow might have been acceptable. Harvesting the seeds for his own use was clearly not."

tomndebb - You usually make sense but just what would you do with the volunteer canola if it was immune to Roundup? If you allow them to grow with the rest of the crop there is no way to separate the altered seeds from your own. It’s not like the Monsanto canola comes with little logos on their leaves at Matt pointed out.

35

Try reading the article matt, he collected seeds from plants he knew to be unusual because Roundup didn’t kill them. Saved and introduced those seeds into his crop on purpose.

Easy, Matt Roundup don’t kill it dead like the other plants…

As for Feynn, you can fuck off too.

(a) Matt was the one using the Stockwell day ref, I just send it right back at him.
(b) The Scheiser ref was sarcasm.
© Yes, every Saudi is a fucking moron… (sarcasm idiot, sarcasm.)

As Monsanto having gone after the wrong yokel, that remains to be seen.

My priorities are to see the best science get out in the field and do the most good. I have long criticized, including here, Monsanto’s ham-handed tactics as unnecessary and counterproductive. At the same time they have a positive duty to protect their intellectual property. Insofar as once one examines the case, it seems highly likely all is not innocent with the poor old “70 year old farmer” I see their point. At the same time I condemn their tactics. They have their rights, the key is to exercise them intelligenty.

Now, in re the specifics of Schmeiser, the facts per the non-partisan articles suggest that
(a) Scheiser knew what he was doing
(b) Upped his usage of Roundup on his Canola fields, despite pious assertions to the contrary.

Ergo, please read the Motherjones and subsequent articles and get back to me about pious Mr. Scheiser.

As for the rice, as I said, professional reasons make it inappropriate for me to comment on it here.

36

Which explains why Day himself is so pissed off all the time! I’d be antisocial too if I had parents like that. :smiley:

Anyway, Coll: you’re absolutely right. I didn’t read the article, and I had no basis for coming to the conclusions I propounded after my first post in this thread. Single-handedly saving the world from global neoliberalism and corporate control can be straining, especially whilst paying rent and studying for finals. Forgive me. :wink:

37

Matt

I thought I would back down from my activist rant where I just vented a lot of frustration with unreasonable folks. I shouldn’t unload on you like that.

I got pissed when I thought you were telling me that I didn’t care about anything but corp PR – although I know that that’s what I focused on.

All in all, I don’t support or like Monsanto’s tactics. I do feel we have to respect and protect intellectual property, but Monsanto’s tactics are dumb on so many levels its hard to capture them. And the It makes everyone I work with look bad, 'cause in ** my ** corner I think we try to be good citizens, not bullies. So, it hurts to be painted with the same brush as people you know are going wrong.

I still don’t know who’s right or wrong in the particular case! I just know that right or wrong, Monsanto is undercutting those who do good work, and that’s bad. Very bad.

Oh yeah, my venting on the Saudis was directed towards the responsible officials and everyone caught up in a dumbmotherfucking system. I gots lots of tolerance but not for those wahhabi motherfuckers who all should be beaten with their own sticks.

So, nuff said.

38

Collounsbury-

Apologies in the Pit, my goodness but how things have changed…

I guess I could fuck off but I won’t. It is good to see that you have lightened up a little and I admit that I too came off as being a little harsh. I don’t think I am one of those “unreasonable folks”.

“I still don’t know who’s right or wrong in the particular case! I just know that right or wrong, Monsanto is undercutting those who do good work, and that’s bad. Very bad.”

We can agree that the guys at Monsanto are a bunch of royal fuck ups can’t we? You probably work for the guys who are doing what you consider to be good work and if anyone can safely improve on the quality of the food we eat I also consider that to be good work. No-one needs to have peers who make you look bad.

From http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/06/27/p6s1.htm

“But showing a visitor around his farm, Schmeiser presents a strong case why he didn’t need GM canola seed. He points out one of his fields of conventional canola, lush and green with plants several inches high, so thick the rich black soil from which they grow is barely visible. Across the way, a field he identifies as Roundup Ready canola, belonging to his neighbor, looks like green velvet with the nap worn away; the plants obviously aren’t as far along as Schmeiser’s. The GM field has been sprayed, he says. But Roundup can be applied only once weeds have sprouted - and had a chance to consume a goodly share of moisture and fertilizer, competing with the canola. Schmeiser prefers to spray before seeding.”

I did do some reading and from what Mr. Schmeiser says, he has been developing his own seed for many, many years. His claim that his own variety of canola is a superior product seems to be borne out by observation and he claims that he suffered reductions in crop yield after the Monsanto seed was introduced into his own seed stock.

His countersuit will be interesting to watch and I am almost tempted to call Mr. Schmeiser myself, I am descended from a long line of farming folk and this is an issue that strikes close to home.