# Genetic Test: Hidden Japanese ancestry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 31, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559 "2013-12-31T12:51:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/21 "2014-01-01T02:36:39Z")
What’s the “FDA” letter referred to in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/22 "2014-01-01T03:09:21Z")
The Food and Drug Administration. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/23 "2014-01-01T03:09:53Z")
I was thinking the Japanese markers might be pan Eurasian, entering the Scandinavian population via the Sami. Doesn’t seem to work that way, though. [File:Haplogrupo N (ADN-Y).PNG - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/24 "2014-01-01T03:43:28Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Or from a Dutch or Portuguese trader to Malaysia anytime from 1500 onwards. I recall that around that time, the Japanese allowed Dutch traders to continue trading in one small, insignificant corner of Japan for a while after kicking out the other Europeans for fear of missionary influence. The Dutch were the only ones willing to, among other things, trample on the cross on a beach to show their intentions were purely mercantile. I can see a scenario in which one of those traders ended up with a half-Japanese offspring whom he took back with him. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/25 "2014-01-01T03:43:52Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There was an interesting [article](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/31/science/i-had-my-dna-picture-taken-with-varying-results.html) in The New York Times yesterday about these genetic tests. A writer submitted samples to 23andMe, Genetic Testing Laboratories and Pathway Genomics. 23andMe said that she had elevated risks for psoriasis and rheumatoid arthritis, while one of the other companies said that she was at the lowest risk for those diseases, among the diseases they tested for. What really kills their credibility is their limited sampling. > [@](#): > > Scientists have identified about 10 million SNPs within our three billion nucleotides. But an entire genome sequencing — looking at all three billion nucleotides — would cost around $3,000; the tests I took examined fewer than a million SNPs. The class-action suit claims that their results are “meaningless.” That may be more true for their predictions of future diseases than ancestry, but I wouldn’t put any faith in any consumer-level genetic testing at this point. They’re being run out of business, and for good reason. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/26 "2014-01-01T03:48:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What’s the “FDA” letter referred to in the OP? [Here it is.](http://www.fda.gov/iceci/enforcementactions/warningletters/2013/ucm376296.htm) The summary is that **23andme** is marketing their DNA genotyping test as a “medical device” and they do not have FDA approval to do so. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/27 "2014-01-01T03:55:48Z")
I had results similar to the OP. The 23andme forums have a large number of people saying ‘WTF, Japanese really?’ Just in the past 72 hours I notice my result has been quietly revised from ‘0.1% Japanese’ to ‘0.1% East Asian’. :dubious: Being as I am your basic Scotch-irish southern US redneck stock, did I really get only 0.1% African-American and 0.0% Native American, yet somehow a reportable amount of Japanese managed to sneak in there? Take your 23andme results with a Fuji-sized grain of salt, is all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/28 "2014-01-01T03:59:29Z")
Oh, and here is what little detail they are giving to explain their report - I am no statistician but these sample sizes seem a little small to draw broad conclusions. > [@](#): > > Eastern Asia encompass Japan, Korea, China, Mongolia and the far East of Russia. The people of Northeastern Asia most likely arrived using a different, later route than the settlers of Southeastern Asia. They eventually crossed Beringia 20,000 years ago to become the ancestors of Native Americans. > > Population Source Sample Size > China 23andMe 388 > China 1000 Genomes 197 > Japan 23andMe 107 > Japan 1000 Genomes 89 > South Korea 23andMe 76 > Taiwan 23andMe 69 > Han HGDP 44 > Japanese HGDP 29 > Yakut HGDP 25 > Oroqen HGDP 10 > Tu HGDP 10 > Mongolia HGDP 10 > Xibo HGDP 9 > Hezhen HGDP 9 > Daur HGDP 9 > Hong Kong 23andMe 1 > Mongolia 23andMe 1 If your result says Hong Kong or Mongolia I would be kinda dubious about that. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/29 "2014-01-01T04:46:24Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > What really kills their credibility is their limited sampling. > > The class-action suit claims that their results are “meaningless.” That may be more true for their predictions of future diseases than ancestry, but I wouldn’t put any faith in any consumer-level genetic testing at this point. They’re being run out of business, and for good reason. Exactly as I asked in the IMHO and MPSIMS threads on this sort of thing. Have they done or aggregated health and genetics studies of tens of thousands of people of different genetic backgrounds over a several decade period to determine the accuracy of the “medical” information they are purveying? No? Then the ‘results’ they’re providing are basically fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/30 "2014-01-01T05:07:57Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I recall that around that time, the Japanese allowed Dutch traders to continue trading in one small, insignificant corner of Japan for a while after kicking out the other Europeans for fear of missionary influence. The Dutch were the only ones willing to, among other things, trample on the cross on a beach to show their intentions were purely mercantile. I can see a scenario in which one of those traders ended up with a half-Japanese offspring whom he took back with him. Yeah, the Dutch were pretty much the only non-East Asian power allowed to trade with Japan during the bulk of the chained country era. Though I wouldn’t go so far as to call Nagasaki a “small, insignificant corner of Japan”. I’m not sure about the “trampling on a cross” thing, though. It may very well had happened, though to my knowledge the whole debacle was mostly a political game played by the Dutch and English against the dirty Catholic Spanish and Portuguese, convincing the Shogunate that the Iberian powers would be unable to trade without spreading their filthy religion. Maybe “stomping on a cross” was part of that, though I recall being told that was a legend. (Largely the Japanese were more concerned about Spain and Portugal’s **colonial** influence since they were conquering the New World at the time. The religion was just part of their fear of losing stability and worry about foreign conquest/subjugation, though admittedly a Christian uprising in Japan threatening the Shogunate’s stability right around that time didn’t help much either). I could definitely see a Dutch trader getting a kid in Japan. I’m not sure it was overwhelmingly common, but it probably happened more than a couple times. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/31 "2014-01-01T05:24:06Z")
Interesting that other people have the same finding. Either there it’s a glitch, or those Japanese-Europeans really got around. It’s hard to tell- it seems likely a glitch, but at the same time you are likely to hear more from people with surprising results than those with obvious and clear cut ones. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Oh, and here is what little detail they are giving to explain their report - I am no statistician but these sample sizes seem a little small to draw broad conclusions. > > If your result says Hong Kong or Mongolia I would be kinda dubious about that. In most cases these are supplemented with outside data sets, and when the data isn’t there, they’ll categorize it as non-specific. I believe the Japanese sample is over 200. They claim to look for the smallest sample she they can that still yield results- not sure why. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/32 "2014-01-01T09:15:29Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I’m not sure about the “trampling on a cross” thing, though …Maybe “stomping on a cross” was part of that, though I recall being told that was a legend. I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out to be a legend, but I’d read it as fact. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/33 "2014-01-02T13:09:47Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out to be a legend, but I’d read it as fact. You’re referring to the practice of [_fumi-e_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumi-e) in which people who were suspected of being christians were forced to trample pictures of Jesus or Mary. It’s true that the Dutch not having any intension of proselytizing was a major asset over the Spanish and Portuguese. The notion that the Dutch willingly performed _fumi-e_ is found in Gulliver’s Travels. Swift has Gulliver visit Japan pretending to be a Dutch sailor. > [@](#): > > To this I added another petition, “that for the sake of my patron the king of Luggnagg, his majesty would condescend to excuse my performing the ceremony imposed on my countrymen, of trampling upon the crucifix: because I had been thrown into his kingdom by my misfortunes, without any intention of trading.” When this latter petition was interpreted to the Emperor, he seemed a little surprised; and said, "he believed I was the first of my countrymen who ever made any scruple in this point; and that he began to doubt, whether I was a real Hollander, or not; but rather suspected I must be a Christian. Some Japanese historians even suggest a hypothesis that the Dutch themselves introduced the practice to Japan, though the former Jesuit [Cristóvão Ferreira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crist%C3%B3v%C3%A3o_Ferreira) is also cited as potential initiator of the practice, and of course there is also historical evidence that it’s something Tokugawa goons came up with. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/34 "2014-01-02T13:48:27Z")
.1% is quite small, 1/10th of 1%, how small do the tests go? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559/35 "2014-01-02T14:31:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Interesting that other people have the same finding. Either there it’s a glitch, or those Japanese-Europeans really got around. It’s hard to tell- it seems likely a glitch, but at the same time you are likely to hear more from people with surprising results than those with obvious and clear cut ones. My point is that it seems unlikely for so many people to be coming up with the same glitchy result, 0.1% Japanese, and it seems suspicious that they’ve revised the report from ‘Japanese’ to ‘East Asian’ in the past few days. Of course surprises are common in our ancestry. But you can’t overlook how much money there could be in selling statistical noise to affluent westerners eager to latch onto a more romanticized version of their ancestry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genetic-test-hidden-japanese-ancestry/677559.md?page=1)