# Genital mutilation of young girls. But it's a religious thing! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057 "2017-04-23T11:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/1 "2017-04-23T11:44:25Z")
[Doctor accused of mutilating genitals of young girls defends procedure as religious practice.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/04/22/doctor-accused-of-mutilating-genitals-of-young-girls-defends-procedure-as-religious-practice/) > [@](#): > > The attorney for a Detroit-area doctor accused of mutilating the genitals of young girls acknowledges that her client performed the procedure, but she says it was part of a religious practice. > > The revelation came during a detention hearing on Monday, a few days after Jumana Nagarwala was charged in what authorities say is the first case of its kind in the country. Shannon Smith said in federal court in Michigan that her client removed the girls’ genital membrane as part of a custom practiced by the Dawoodi Bohra, a small sect of Indian Muslims of which Nagarwala is a part, the Detroit Free-Press reported. Religious freedom my ass. I hope this doctor gets jailtime. As for the parents involved I don’t want to say remove the kids, I know how shitty that could be for the kids themselves, but close monitoring of the families is the least that should be done. And yeah, if their religion tells them to do this then fuck their religion. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/2 "2017-04-23T11:55:45Z")
_insert lame joke mocking typo here - I’m too tired to choose one_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/3 "2017-04-23T12:09:16Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > [Doctor accused of mutilating genitals of young girls defends procedure as religious practice.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/04/22/doctor-accused-of-mutilating-genitals-of-young-girls-defends-procedure-as-religious-practice/) > > Religious freedom my ass. I hope this doctor gets jailtime. As for the parents involved I don’t want to say remove the kids, I know how shitty that could be for the kids themselves, but close monitoring of the families is the least that should be done. > > And yeah, if their religion tells them to do this then fuck their religion. This is a very old and common story. The United States does not, and has never supported universal unfettered “freedom of religious practice,” and never will, precisely for reasons such as this. There are no, and can be no absolute freedoms. But there WILL always be people in the media eager to goad us all into reacting emotionally to idiots like this doctor, in order to sell more commercials. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/4 "2017-04-23T12:09:27Z")
[Moderating] I’ve fixed the typo in the title (it previously read “genetic”). [Not moderating] I’m not sure what it means to “remove the genital membrane”, but there are some forms of genital mutilation which are required by some religions and are legally allowed (even for non-religious reasons). It’s possible that the court could rule that this is also allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/5 "2017-04-23T12:29:53Z")
It’s hard to figure out exactly what they are doing and why. What’s telling is that if you ask them, they lie about it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/6 "2017-04-23T12:36:51Z")
Any, non-necessary genital mutilation of either sex should be outlawed. Religious consideration should not come into it. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/7 "2017-04-23T13:30:35Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Any, non-necessary genital mutilation of either sex should be outlawed. Religious consideration should not come into it. This. There is no anatomical difference between removal of the clitoral hood (known as Type 1a FGM) and removal of penile foreskin (known as male circumcision). Why is the latter completely accepted in most industrialized countries because religion and hygiene (as if boys aren’t able to learn to wash themselves properly), when the former seen as an abomination? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/8 "2017-04-23T13:55:57Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > This. There is no anatomical difference between removal of the clitoral hood (known as Type 1a FGM) and removal of penile foreskin (known as male circumcision). > > Why is the latter completely accepted in most industrialized countries because religion and hygiene (as if boys aren’t able to learn to wash themselves properly), when the former seen as an abomination? I imagine because of the ridiculous disparity in actual practice. One is widespread and normally performed after birth in a clinical setting. The other is a dubious DIY project performed on unsuspecting second-graders. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/9 "2017-04-23T14:08:20Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > I imagine because of the ridiculous disparity in actual practice. One is widespread and normally performed after birth in a clinical setting. The other is a dubious DIY project performed on unsuspecting second-graders. The major fact is that one is done to deny/prevent sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/10 "2017-04-23T14:21:33Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > This. There is no anatomical difference between removal of the clitoral hood (known as Type 1a FGM) and removal of penile foreskin (known as male circumcision). > > Why is the latter completely accepted in most industrialized countries because religion and hygiene (as if boys aren’t able to learn to wash themselves properly), when the former seen as an abomination? I suspect if it was always _just_ the hood, there would be less outrage about it, but yes, in principle there does seem to be a double standard. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/11 "2017-04-23T15:02:38Z")
FWIW, I’d be happy to see male circumcision banned as well. What kind of sickos started any of this anyway? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/12 "2017-04-23T15:11:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [Moderating] > I’ve fixed the typo in the title (it previously read “genetic”). > > [Not moderating] > I’m not sure what it means to “remove the genital membrane”, but there are some forms of genital mutilation which are required by some religions and are legally allowed (even for non-religious reasons). It’s possible that the court could rule that this is also allowed. Thanks for fixing it, **Chronos** , brainfart on my part. Your point about other forms of genital mutilation is well taken. I may be confusing this practice with [infibulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation#Type_III) which is a more drastic procedure. The whole question is far more nuanced than I’d thought. I need to educate myself a little further on this and this thread is proving a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/13 "2017-04-23T16:01:12Z")
Bottom line: God wants parts of everyone’s genitals surgically removed, and if you can’t understand that, you don’t know God. You can look at the issue though the feeble lens of worldly cause and effect and come to a human(e) conclusion, but what about the effect on God’s feelings when you don’t do what he wants? Ever think of that, buckaroo? ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/14 "2017-04-23T16:29:31Z")
In the interest of fighting ignorance, I will point out that medical experts are by no means unanimous in their condemnation of circumcision when practiced on males. If anything, the opposite: the Center for Disease Control in the US, the World Health Organization, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the UN’s focus group on HIV all recommend that “male circumcision efforts be scaled up” or at the very least be available to families and men that want it. That’s for health reasons backed by research: “Male circumcision reduces the risk for HIV and some STDs in heterosexual men. Three randomized, controlled trials performed in regions of sub-Saharan Africa where generalized HIV epidemics involving predominantly heterosexual transmission were occurring demonstrated that male circumcision reduced the risk for HIV acquisition among men by 50%–60% (51–53). In these trials, circumcision was also protective against other STDs, including high-risk genital HPV infection and genital herpes (54-56). Follow up studies have demonstrated sustained benefit of circumcision for HIV prevention (57) and that the effect is not mediated solely through a reduction in herpes simplex virus type 2 (HSV-2) infection or genital ulcer disease.” [https://www.cdc.gov/std/tg2015/clinical.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/std/tg2015/clinical.htm) Also see > **[CDC Endorses Circumcision for Health Reasons](https://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20141202/cdc-endorses-circumcision-for-health-reasons)** > > Says benefits, including reduced chances of sexually transmitted diseases, outweigh risks I am not aware of any corresponding medical/scientific research that suggests any health benefits for female circumcision. I know male circumcision is a complicated question and a controversial topic for reasons that go beyond questions of health, and a lot of people don’t want to buy into any research that suggests removal of the foreskin is anything but evil. But, well, the research is there, and a lot of very well-informed people do accept it, and until and unless there is scientific evidence of value to female circumcision the two are really not comparable. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/15 "2017-04-23T16:44:12Z")
From what little I know about FGM, my understanding is that it’s not so much a religious practice as it is a tribal practice. The strangest thing about it is that most of the objection to it in Africa is from other women, because it’s women who perform it! :eek: It’s one of those “but it’s the way we’ve always done things”, well, things. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/16 "2017-04-23T16:53:28Z")
Can we for once, not turn a thread about FGM into a thread about male circumcision? Just for once? Whatever your beliefs about it, the issues surrouding it are different. Okay? Please. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/17 "2017-04-23T17:37:27Z")
There is a pre-existing thread in [MPSIMS](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=823907). ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/18 "2017-04-23T20:35:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > [Moderating] > I’ve fixed the typo in the title (it previously read “genetic”). > > [Not moderating] > I’m not sure what it means to “remove the genital membrane”, but there are some forms of genital mutilation which are required by some religions and are legally allowed (even for non-religious reasons). It’s possible that the court could rule that this is also allowed. The thread in MPSIMS quotes a law that seems pretty much written to flat out forbid any variant or ‘minimal’ or ‘ritualistic’ versions of FGM - probably to prevent this very occurance. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/19 "2017-04-23T21:18:52Z")
The law is short and sweet. I like this: > [@](#): > > (c) In applying subsection (b)(1), no account shall be taken of the effect on the person on whom the operation is to be performed of any belief on the part of that person, or any other person, that the operation is required as a matter of custom or ritual. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/20 "2017-04-23T21:28:36Z")
The Federal Law against FGM would seem to rule out the religion defense in the recent case, as \*\*Tee \*\*quoted – that particular passage refers to the case (“subsection (b)(1)”) where a medical professional may be faced with this situation, specifying that only medical necessity and nothing else may be taken into account. > [@aldiboronti](#): > > Thanks for fixing it, **Chronos** , brainfart on my part. > > Your point about other forms of genital mutilation is well taken. I may be confusing this practice with [infibulation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation#Type_III) which is a more drastic procedure. The whole question is far more nuanced than I’d thought. I need to educate myself a little further on this and this thread is proving a good start. > [@Lasciel](#): > > The thread in MPSIMS quotes a law that seems pretty much written to flat out forbid any variant or ‘minimal’ or ‘ritualistic’ versions of FGM - probably to prevent this very occurance. Indeed, in the currently notorious case the indictment papers talk about scarrings and incisions in the girls’ genitals but with little detail if any on what or how much was injured or removed, because they do not have to, as the law in question outlaws _ **ANY** _ not medically necessary genital cutting whatsoever in a minor female. The lawmakers apparently wanted to make damn sure there would be no “slippery slope” of any kind and no court would have to sit through an argument on whether anything under X millimeters is OK and what about if it’s just a piercing vs an incision where tissue is cut into vs. an excisionwhere something’s removed, etc., etc. The legislation is “just \*&^% no, no way, no how, don't even \*&^% think about it, don’t bother \*&^%$ explaining.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057.md?page=2)