# Genital mutilation of young girls. But it's a religious thing! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057 "2017-04-23T11:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/301 "2018-11-30T21:53:19Z")
I can’t say it any better than NB already did: > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > [W]hat you cannot do is pretend that the two subject are not intrinsically linked, that the discussion of one does not take you inexorably, ultimately, into a consideration of the other. > In both cases you are dealing with cultural and religious practices, inflicted on non-consenting children that manifestly change their bodies in irreversible ways. > If you are arguing against any and all forms and severity of FGM under any circumstances then you are implicitly arguing against MGM as well and denying that is a hypocrisy that needs to be addressed. If you suggest that milder forms of FGM may be allowable for cultural and religious reasons then you are implicitly drawing an equivalence to MGM and using it as an example of what is permissible. > > Those clamoring for MGM never to be discussed in threads about FGM are not being realistic and are seeking to have that discussion in a vaccuum that it does not warrant. This is not a male v female conflict. It is about the principles of bodily autonomy of children and the barbaric practices of culture and religion that infringe on that. The mentality that inflicts this on boys and girls is precisely and exactly equivalent even though typically the outcomes are more severe for girls than boys. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/302 "2018-11-30T22:18:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 It sounds like you’re extrapolating from a few accounts of specific experiences to an entire set of practices worldwide, and that’s bound to be inaccurate. > > For instance, what about the cultures where FGC is practiced on girls in infancy? Obviously “deception” and “shock” are no more a factor there than they are for infant male circumcision. What about the cultures where FGC is a very mild form of Type IV, and the elements of “pain” and “backroom doctoring” are negligible to nonexistent? > > I’m not denying that the examples you describe come across as very strong arguments for opposing _ **those particular forms of FGC that are being described in those examples** _. But trying to lump **all** types of ritual FGC procedures together into that same category and condemn them all is at best massively ignorant and careless, and at worst downright xenophobic and bigoted. You’ll have to direct me to examples. I don’t know of any types practiced on girls in infancy that would meet our “exactly the same” criteria, or help your argument in any way. Apparently neither does WHO. I don’t know of any childhood instances that routinely involve a physician or some kind of standard practice, and I would be _very_ interested in knowing about any procedures, anywhere, that attempt to minimize pain and trauma. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/303 "2018-11-30T22:29:05Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Your invitation is off topic. A request for **Modesty Blaise** to give you a dental penectomy belongs in a new thread in MPSIMS, or perhaps Marketplace. > > In the spirit of the holidays, I wish everyone a happy vulva. > > E.T.A. Good luck, **Guin**. As you can see, it probably wouldn’t do any good. The same trolls would probably come and smear shit all over it. > [@UCBearcats](#): > > Anyone who does this or allows this should have their throat cut slowly with s full, rusty knife. Considering that it’s usually done with rusty knives, or broken glass, that’s especially appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/304 "2018-11-30T22:29:10Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > You’ll have to direct me to examples. I don’t know of any types practiced on girls in infancy that would meet our “exactly the same” criteria, or help your argument in any way. Apparently neither does WHO. I don’t know of any childhood instances that routinely involve a physician or some kind of standard practice, and I would be _very_ interested in knowing about any procedures, anywhere, that attempt to minimize pain and trauma. Even if that’s true, the future of this practice among immigrants to the U.S. hinges on the approach anti-FGM activists take. If they identify those factors as the key stumbling blocks, then those will be what is banned and families will have their daughters’ genitals cut within the bounds allowed by U.S. law. Perhaps for you, that would be the shape of an anti-FGM victory. To my way of thinking, it would not—and it would be an unfortunate missed opportunity to keep pushing for a complete ban (which then inexorably leads to MGM being reconsidered on the same basis). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/305 "2018-11-30T22:52:40Z")
I think there is an underlying, not-quite-explicitly-acknowledged subtext here that goes something like this: “Women have suffered for millennia under rape culture, harassment, and neglect of—or repression of—female sexuality. To pile forcible cutting of young girls’ genitals on top of all that is just unacceptable. It’s ‘punching down’. But for men to take a hit below the belt? That’s ‘punching up’, and you know what? Fuck it, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/306 "2018-11-30T22:56:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Even if that’s true, the future of this practice among immigrants to the U.S. hinges on the approach anti-FGM activists take. If they identify those factors as the key stumbling blocks, then those will be what is banned and families will have their daughters’ genitals cut within the bounds allowed by U.S. law. Perhaps for you, that would be the shape of an anti-FGM victory. To my way of thinking, it would not—and it would be an unfortunate missed opportunity to keep pushing for a complete ban (which then inexorably leads to MGM being reconsidered on the same basis). It seems strange to me to haggle about how much of a person’s own body they are allowed to keep. Cutting off a hand is too much, but what about the pinky finger? Okay, an entire finger is too much, what about the last digit of the pinky finger? What if Deaf parents have a hearing child, and they want to surgically remove the child’s eardrums so the child will be fully immersed in “Deaf Culture” and not later stray into the hearing world? Who are we to judge? Lots of people live perfectly happy lives being completely deaf. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/307 "2018-11-30T23:13:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I think there is an underlying, not-quite-explicitly-acknowledged subtext here that goes something like this: > > “Women have suffered for millennia under rape culture, harassment, and neglect of—or repression of—female sexuality. To pile forcible cutting of young girls’ genitals on top of all that is just unacceptable. It’s ‘punching down’. But for men to take a hit below the belt? That’s ‘punching up’, and you know what? Fuck it, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.” > > :dubious: That’s the problem with identity politics gone amok. Instead of viewing people as individuals, they view people as members of either the Oppressed or the Dominator classes. In that framework, men as a class dominate women as a class. Whites as a class dominate People of Color. This has been going on for too long, and the tables need to be turned. There are some on the Left that don’t want true equality. They want revenge. A world where the social hierarchy is inverted, and men (especially white men) are on the bottom of the hierarchy instead of on the top. Thus the suffering of men is considered completely unworthy of their attention. Men have had it too good for thousands of years, so fuck it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/308 "2018-11-30T23:17:36Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > You’ll have to direct me to examples. I don’t know of any types practiced on girls in infancy that would meet our “exactly the same” criteria, or help your argument in any way. Apparently neither does WHO. I don’t know of any childhood instances that routinely involve a physician or some kind of standard practice, and I would be _very_ interested in knowing about any procedures, anywhere, that attempt to minimize pain and trauma. You apparently haven’t been paying attention in this thread, or to the linked references to the frequently-mentioned closed GD thread. If you had, you’d have found multiple references like [this one](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21347307&postcount=259) to such examples, including the ones in [this article](https://theconversation.com/female-genital-cutting-common-in-indonesia-offered-as-part-of-child-delivery-by-birth-clinics-54379) that I’ve cited several times now: > [@](#): > > Around 60 million women, or half of the women in Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim majority, are estimated to have undergone FGM. > > Traditional “circumcisers” have long carried out the practice, known as female khitan or sunat perempuan in Indonesia. In recent years, medical practitioners have been increasingly performing FGM, institutionalising the ritual into medical practice. > > Many maternity clinics now offer the procedure as part of a birth delivery package, done soon after labour, without additional charges. […] > > Female genital cutting is now more commonly performed by medical personnel than traditional circumcisers. […] > > The 2013 survey showed the age to be going down: 96.7% of FGMs were performed before the age of five years. Of that, 82.8% were performed on babies between the ages 0 and 11 months. > > The majority of those who had undergone FGM could not remember the process or pain when asked as adult respondents. Consequently, there was no evidence of immediate or long-term physical or psychological complications. […] > > The 2001-2002 Population Council study shows that much of traditional circumcision in Indonesia is limited to scraping, rubbing and piercing with a needle to produce a drop of blood. > > In contrast, in Africa the practice frequently involves partial or total removal of the clitoris (or the prepuce) and stitching to narrow the vaginal opening (infibulation). ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/309 "2018-11-30T23:36:47Z")
A lot of this conversation- particularly the parts about how the glans becomes calloused and less sensitive, leading to less satisfying sex- reminds me of an article I read that talks about the difference between men and women when talking about “good sex” and “bad sex.” > **[The female price of male pleasure](https://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure)** > > Let's talk about bad sex When we talk about MGM, we are talking about the unnecessary removal of some tissue, that results in a less sensitive sex organ. When we talk about FGM it’s usually a good deal more than just a reduction in sensitivity. Not always, there are varying types and different cultures. It could be a purely symbolic nick in the clitoral hood; it may be complete removal of the clitoris. It may even be infibulation. Usually male circumcision occurs in infancy, and female circumcision occurs anywhere between 0-15 years. Usually before puberty, so… The girls are likely to remember the experience. The average I saw in age was ten years, though Kimstu’s cite contradicts that, at least in regard to Indonesian FGM. I don’t support male circumcision. I also can’t work up nearly the same amount of sympathy for those who had their foreskin removed in infancy as for victims of FGM. Especially when those men come into a discussion of something ranging from a feminine equivalent of foreskin removal to being sewn shut to complain of reduced sensitivity. About 10% of FGM is Type III. Is there an an equivalent in male circumcision? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/310 "2018-12-01T00:00:56Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > A lot of this conversation- particularly the parts about how the glans becomes calloused and less sensitive, leading to less satisfying sex- reminds me of an article I read that talks about the difference between men and women when talking about “good sex” and “bad sex.” It’s actually possible for circumcised men to run their own experiment on this. They can keep the head of their penis covered with a condom for a few weeks. This will allow their glans to become decalloused. They can then discover for themselves whether there is any difference in sensation. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/311 "2018-12-01T00:40:37Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > It’s actually possible for circumcised men to run their own experiment on this. They can keep the head of their penis covered with a condom for a few weeks. This will allow their glans to become decalloused. They can then discover for themselves whether there is any difference in sensation. If you want to do such a thing, knock yourself out. But to come into a discussion about FGM and talk about this is inappropriate. Because guess what – it’s not possible for a girl who’s gone through infibulation to regain “sensation”. There’s a hell of a lot more there than just “less satisfying sex” to worry about, and THAT is often a huge part of what people want to talk about. Why can’t you accept that, and take YOUR discussion elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/312 "2018-12-01T01:19:29Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Even if that’s true, the future of this practice among immigrants to the U.S. hinges on the approach anti-FGM activists take. If they identify those factors as the key stumbling blocks, then those will be what is banned and families will have their daughters’ genitals cut within the bounds allowed by U.S. law. Perhaps for you, that would be the shape of an anti-FGM victory. To my way of thinking, it would not—and it would be an unfortunate missed opportunity to keep pushing for a complete ban (which then inexorably leads to MGM being reconsidered on the same basis). I agree. Your problem is institutional. My concern is for immigrants. (I have nothing invested really in ending all manner of genital cutting, you may go ahead and judge me but I prefer to leave penis matters to those that have them.) The flip side of your post is the anti-circ people successfully merging the two entities and then female circumcision eventually becoming an institution as well. > [@Kimstu](#): > > You apparently haven’t been paying attention in this thread, or to the linked references to the frequently-mentioned closed GD thread. If you had, you’d have found multiple references like [this one](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21347307&postcount=259) to such examples, including the ones in [this article](https://theconversation.com/female-genital-cutting-common-in-indonesia-offered-as-part-of-child-delivery-by-birth-clinics-54379) that I’ve cited several times now: This thread is old, I’d forgotten about it, and I didn’t read the thread in GD. My apologies. Your cite is exactly as described as it pertains to the practice of routine female clinical circumcision by religious decree. It’s really a best-case scenario, and it’s really not why I’m here, but you know that. [This](http://www.sunjournal.com/debate-rages-in-augusta-about-female-genital-mutilation-measure/) is why I’m here. To give props to Indonesians for promoting safer cutting is still endorsing [this](https://www.rappler.com/world/regions/asia-pacific/indonesia/bahasa/englishedition/154597-female-genital-mutliation-reasons) kind of thing, in Indonesia: > [@](#): > > The study, which was unveiled last week, found that up to 61% of girls underwent female genital mutilation (FGM) before they turned one year old. It also identified a predominant perception that uncircumcised girls will be alienated because they are considered filthy and will grow up promiscuous and unwanted. …and we don’t want to promote that kind of culture here now, do we? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/313 "2018-12-01T12:12:05Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > If you want to do such a thing, knock yourself out. But to come into a discussion about FGM and talk about this is inappropriate. Because guess what – it’s not possible for a girl who’s gone through infibulation to regain “sensation”. There’s a hell of a lot more there than just “less satisfying sex” to worry about, and THAT is often a huge part of what people want to talk about. Why can’t you accept that, and take YOUR discussion elsewhere? Let’s be clear about this: it’s possible for FGM victims, even those with infibulation, to have orgasms through the g-spot or nipple stimulation. It eliminates the ability to have a particular _type_ of orgasm (via the clitoris). This is no way justifies the practice of course, but it’s not neccesarily true that infibulation victims completely lose the ability to enjoy sex. ---
**Author:** ![Modesty\_Blaise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Modesty\_Blaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modesty_Blaise)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/314 "2018-12-01T14:06:48Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Let’s be clear about this: it’s possible for FGM victims, even those with infibulation, to have orgasms through the g-spot or nipple stimulation. It eliminates the ability to have a particular _type_ of orgasm (via the clitoris). This is no way justifies the practice of course, but it’s not neccesarily true that infibulation victims completely lose the ability to enjoy sex. This paragraph is disturbing. You’ve managed to make this thread all about penises. That isn’t enough, apparently. Now you are actually minimizing the experience of millions of females. In a culture that cuts girls for the purpose of keeping them from enjoying sex, that’s the culture in which you think girls/women will somehow learn to have orgasms by nipple stimulation and/or g-spot? So, gee, not so bad after all. Right? What an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![catflea12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f6c823/32.png) [@catflea12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catflea12)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/315 "2018-12-01T14:32:22Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Let’s be clear about this: it’s possible for FGM victims, even those with infibulation, to have orgasms through the g-spot or nipple stimulation. It eliminates the ability to have a particular _type_ of orgasm (via the clitoris). This is no way justifies the practice of course, but it’s not neccesarily true that infibulation victims completely lose the ability to enjoy sex. Just like it’s not necessarily true that circumcised men completely lose the ability to enjoy sex. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/316 "2018-12-01T14:39:37Z")
> [@Modesty\_Blaise](#): > > This paragraph is disturbing. > > You’ve managed to make this thread all about penises. That isn’t enough, apparently. Now you are actually minimizing the experience of millions of females. Now that I actually am talking about female anatomy and moving on from penises, I’m still getting complaints. > [@](#): > > In a culture that cuts girls for the purpose of keeping them from enjoying sex, that’s the culture in which you think girls/women will somehow learn to have orgasms by nipple stimulation and/or g-spot? So, gee, not so bad after all. Right? > > What an asshole. I’m utterly appalled at FGM. If you interpreted what I wrote to any way condone the practice, I can assure you that’s not the message I wanted to convey. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/317 "2018-12-01T14:44:02Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’m utterly appalled at FGM. If you interpreted what I wrote to any way condone the practice, I can assure you that’s not the message I wanted to convey. Then maybe you should shut up until you learn how to convey a message. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/318 "2018-12-01T14:48:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is nonsense. One just needs to ask two questions to understand that can fairly be discussed as two separate issues: > > 1. Why are genital operations performed on healthy young boys? > > 2. Why are genital operations performed on healthy young girls? 1. Because tradition mandates it. 2. Because tradition mandates it. Your point is? ---
**Author:** ![Modesty\_Blaise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Modesty\_Blaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modesty_Blaise)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/319 "2018-12-01T14:51:31Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’m utterly appalled at FGM. If you interpreted what I wrote to any way condone the practice, I can assure you that’s not the message I wanted to convey. You didn’t condone the practice, you just minimized the effect it has. Haven’t you accused some posters of minimizing the effects of circumcision? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Modesty\_Blaise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Modesty\_Blaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modesty_Blaise)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/320 "2018-12-01T15:21:59Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > 1. Because tradition mandates it. > > 2. Because tradition mandates it. > > Your point is? One is done to control females and their sexual autonomy. It’s extremely misogynistic and harmful to females. It’s common that this results in women living in pain for the rest of their lives. The other is done because of tradition and misinformation. It’s not done to exert control over male sexuality. And in almost all of the cases it does not result in the male having pain after the procedure has healed. Both are bad. One is bad on a whole nother level. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057.md?page=17)