# Genital mutilation of young girls. But it's a religious thing! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 23, 2017, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057 "2017-04-23T11:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/482 "2018-12-06T15:43:58Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > So I’ve been reading up on [FGM in Egypt](http://www.spiegel.de/international/tomorrow/genital-mutilation-in-egypt-stop-taking-your-daughters-to-be-mutilated-a-1199322.html), and I found this passage particularly noteworthy: > > It seems that women themselves are often the ones who ensure their daughter is “circumcised” (the promoters of FGM don’t use the word “mutilation”, they use the word “circumcision”), without the involvement of the men. It is the men in high power that indoctrinate them from birth, and threaten them with torture and/or death if they deviate from that deviant norm. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/483 "2018-12-06T15:48:47Z")
There’s that allyship from Andy again, paired with “I don’t care what thoughtful people (including a highly credentialed Yale expert, that I’ll try to dismiss as ‘some blogger’) have to say, I’m going to stubbornly insist on this segregation anyway, from the ignorant perspective I prefer.” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![catflea12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f6c823/32.png) [@catflea12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catflea12)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/484 "2018-12-06T15:49:17Z")
SlackerInc for someone who evidently does not understand how masturbation works you sure have a lot of opinions about it. Since when do men only rub on the glans to masturbate? Only thing I’ve ever seen is they grab hold of the shaft and start thwapping away. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/485 "2018-12-06T15:53:14Z")
> [@catflea12](#): > > SlackerInc for someone who evidently does not understand how masturbation works you sure have a lot of opinions about it. Since when do men only rub on the glans to masturbate? Only thing I’ve ever seen is they grab hold of the shaft and start thwapping away. Then your understanding is clearly incomplete. And why in the world are you saying I don’t understand how masturbation works? I assure you, I have a great deal of experience in that area! ---
**Author:** ![catflea12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f6c823/32.png) [@catflea12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catflea12)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/486 "2018-12-06T16:05:11Z")
So do I, both watching and participating. 100% of the time, thwapping away on the shaft, both cut and uncut. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/487 "2018-12-06T16:06:09Z")
> [@catflea12](#): > > SlackerInc for someone who evidently does not understand how masturbation works you sure have a lot of opinions about it. Since when do men only rub on the glans to masturbate? Only thing I’ve ever seen is they grab hold of the shaft and start thwapping away. Would y’all mind going elsewhere to masturbate? It looks like the problem is growing [in Colombia, too.](https://thebogotapost.com/cutting-danger-female-genital-mutilation/33434/) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/488 "2018-12-06T16:08:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is the men in high power that indoctrinate them from birth, and threaten them with torture and/or death if they deviate from that deviant norm. I don’t feel I have a good understanding of why people remove the clitoris or infibulate. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/489 "2018-12-06T16:46:24Z")
> [@catflea12](#): > > So do I, both watching and participating. 100% of the time, thwapping away on the shaft, both cut and uncut. Wow, 100% you say! I guess I must be a figment of my own imagination then. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/490 "2018-12-06T16:46:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > There’s that allyship from Andy again, paired with “I don’t care what thoughtful people (including a highly credentialed Yale expert, that I’ll try to dismiss as ‘some blogger’) have to say, I’m going to stubbornly insist on this segregation anyway, from the ignorant perspective I prefer.” :smack: These are Brian Earp’s [credentials](http://oxford.academia.edu/BrianDEarp), by the way: > [@](#): > > Brian is Associate Director of the Yale-Hastings Program in Ethics and Health Policy at Yale University and Research Fellow in the Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics at the University of Oxford. His work is cross-disciplinary, following training in philosophy, cognitive science, psychology, history and sociology of science and medicine, and ethics. Brian is the recipient of both the Robert G. Crowder Prize in Psychology and the Ledyard Cogswell Award for Citizenship from Yale University, where he was elected President of the Yale Philosophy Society as an undergraduate as well as Editor-in-Chief of the Yale Philosophy Review. He then conducted graduate research in psychological methods as a Henry Fellow of New College at the University of Oxford. While at Oxford, he completed additional coursework in the philosophy of science and philosophy of mind, which he went on to publish in peer-reviewed journals. He also conducted graduate research in the history, philosophy, and sociology of science, technology, and medicine as a Cambridge Trust Scholar and Rausing Award recipient at Trinity College at the University of Cambridge. He is currently a Gordon Fellow, Benjamin Franklin Graduate Fellow, and McDougal Writing Fellow at Yale University conducting doctoral research in philosophy and psychology, having been jointly admitted to both departments. His essays have been translated into Polish, German, Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Hebrew. Yep, just some blogger! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/491 "2018-12-06T16:52:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t feel I have a good understanding of why people remove the clitoris or infibulate. According to Wiki and the Colombia article, one of the reasons is that men supposedly prefer a smooth service because an enlarged clitoris reminds them of a penis-just a bit of homophobia there-so the goal is to have as smooth a surface as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/492 "2018-12-06T16:55:18Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Then your understanding is clearly incomplete. And why in the world are you saying I don’t understand how masturbation works? I assure you, I have a great deal of experience in that area! … … Nah, too easy. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/493 "2018-12-06T17:40:28Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t feel I have a good understanding of why people remove the clitoris or infibulate. I don’t think there’s a single identifiable reason or set of reasons: all the reasons stated or hypothesized for it appear to be ultimately after-the-fact justifications or rationalizations of a traditional practice that’s extremely old (pre-Abrahamic religions in Africa). [This article says:](https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/clitoridectomy-and-infibulation) > [@](#): > > The Sudan is a country in which all the various kinds and degrees of female genital surgery are practiced […] [Among] over 3,000 women in five different provinces of the Sudan[,] [t]he study area had [around 1985] a female circumcision prevalence of nearly 99 percent. Of these, 80 percent were Pharaonic circumcisions - the oldest historically and the most severe form which the practice takes in the Sudan. In Pharaonic circumcisions, as performed by traditional midwives, the entire clitoris is removed from the base, the labia minora are grasped with the hand and cut off, the inside edges of the labia majora are excised, and then the two sides of the wound are brought together and held together by various substances […] > > Sunna means “tradition” in Arabic, and this form of female circumcision is said to have been recommended by the Prophet; it is also called “Government Sunna.” Sunna circumcision consists of removing only the prepuce from around the glans of the clitoris, and thus is homologous to male circumcision. In El-Dareer’s sample of 3,000 women, only 2.5 percent had had this kind of operation. […] > > When the British [in 1945] outlawed Pharaonic circumcision and urged the Sudanese to practice Sunna circumcision, they did not realize that for many ethnic groups in the Sudan Sunna circumcision was considered to be no circumcision at all. An operation intermediate between Pharaonic and Sunna circumcision was invented by trained midwives as a compromise between the demands of the government and of their clients. This intermediate kind of operation covers a wide range of variation. In the mildest form of intermediate, only the tip, or at most half of the clitoris is removed, and the surfaces of the labia minora are roughened and then stitched together. The most severe grade of intermediate circumcision is nearly indistinguishable from Pharaonic […] > > Slightly over I percent of the sampled women were Coptic Christians; all of them had been circumcised with a Pharaonic operation, thus belying the idea that female circumcision is a Muslim custom. […] > > In Asma El-Dareer’s survey, the reasons given for continuing the practice of circumcision were, in order of decreasing frequency: tradition, religion, cleanlinesss and beauty (uncircumcised genitalia were described as ugly and dirty), better marriage prospects, greater pleasure for the husband, preservation of virginity/prevention of immorality; and increased fertility. […] > > The history of ritual genital surgery on women is not well known. Reliefs showing male circumcision being performed have been found in Egypt and have been dated as being from the sixth dynasty or 2340-2180 B.C., but whether excision and infibulation had a parallel development is unclear. But by the time of the first millennium B.C. there is considerable evidence that female clitoridectomy and infibulation was also practiced in Egypt. Herodotus mentions the custom specifically and tells us that it was practiced by the Phoenicians, Hittites, and the Ethiopians as well as the Egyptians. […] > > As Islam spread into Egypt during the Arab conquest of North Africa, the practices of clitoridectomy and infibulation were picked up and carried to distant parts of the world. […] > > It may perhaps be useful to review some of the attempts that have been made in the past to offer a general theoretical formulation for the practice of clitoridectomy and infibulation. […] The Marxist/feminist viewpoint utilizes the general approach of Godelier in his application of Marxist theory to African settings. He asserts that in pre-industrial African societies the primary resource is labor, and thus the control of production is effectively the same as the control of reproduction. In societies practicing infibulation, the sewing up of a young girl’s vagina insures that her reproductive capacity will be safely secured until it can be incorporated into the lineage system of exchanges of women for bridewealth. Clitoridectomy can similarly be accounted for; it functions to dampen down the sexual desire of women so that it can be controlled and utilized in the service of the production of children - the new labor supply of the society. […] > > Another interpretation of clitoridectomy and infibulation is also possible, and that is that the custom may have the function of lowering the fertility of women in areas where, because of either desert conditions or high population density, the land is nearly at carrying capacity. […] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/494 "2018-12-06T17:49:55Z")
Apologies for any part I played in inadvertently assisting a thread hijack. I’ll suggest that from now on, any time someone wants to respond to Slacker (or someone else) about something other than the thread topic (FGM), they can quote his post but actually post it in the following thread, thus hopefully moving such hijacking discussions out of this FGM thread: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21362963](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21362963) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/495 "2018-12-06T17:55:30Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > BTW, I note that exchanges like this continue to treat circumcision as the norm and being uncut as some sort of exotic condition. The fact is that the majority of the men in the world are uncut, as are the majority of American boys born in the past few years. The remaining overwhelmingly circumcised population in this country is roughly congruent with the FOX News, #MAGA cohort. And this “othering” of people like me is par for the course from that crowd. :dubious: This may be the new winner of the “dumbest post ever” on the SDMB. You really think there’s much of an overlap between Jews/Muslims and the #MAGA “cohort”? Because close to 100% of all male Jews and Muslims are circumcised. You’ve always been known as an idiot around here, but geez…at least try to keep some vague semblance of dignity as you troll. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/496 "2018-12-06T17:57:27Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > **Laws that protect girls and don’t protect boys from genital cutting are vulnerable to a legal challenge, and could very well be struck down. Thus, the best strategy to protect girls in this country must necessarily involve also protecting boys.** A law that specifically prohibits genital cutting may not be all that important. My state has one; our neighbor to the north with Muslim communities does not. There are good arguments for and against it, and there are reasons to suspect that the motivations behind such legislation aren’t all about protecting kids. In the meantime, we don’t have any comparative medical mainstream form of female circumcision here, it’s an underground practice, and so there is no distinction made between “just a nick” and a clitorectomy – it’s a criminal act. Zero tolerance. No one, male or female, old or young, Republican or Democrat, seems to lack the will to charge a grandma or a respectable doctor with assault to discourage the practice. Which is fine by me. The paragraph from the article you included shares a trait with other scholarship, in that it focuses on the different pieces and parts affected with cutting rituals in an academic fashion. Within the US, there’s no need for anyone to do this and I’ve found it unhelpful for two reasons: this approach neglects the characteristics of assault, which is what informs the views of law enforcement more so than the similarity to male circumcision, and the fact that all of these classifications assume that razor-wielding grandmas everywhere use them in a precise and standardized way. The latter is plain fucking ridiculous; I doubt that thinking survives outside of an academic setting. The habit of rating these rituals free and clear of any psychological aspects is also kind of disconnected from humanity, but it a different direction. The best, clearest, strongest argument for zero tolerance is the trauma built into the practices that elevate them beyond “just a little nick.” And that applies to boys and girls, there would be little difference. > [@Blaron](#): > > It seems that women themselves are often the ones who ensure their daughter is “circumcised” (the promoters of FGM don’t use the word “mutilation”, they use the word “circumcision”), without the involvement of the men. Absolutely true. It is supported by and performed by women. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/497 "2018-12-06T18:25:57Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > This may be the new winner of the “dumbest post ever” on the SDMB. You really think there’s much of an overlap between Jews/Muslims and the #MAGA “cohort”? > > Because close to 100% of all male Jews and Muslims are circumcised. > > You’ve always been known as an idiot around here, but geez…at least try to keep some vague semblance of dignity as you troll. :smack: Way to show off your own lack of perspicaciousness and general dumbassery, in spectacular, ironic fashion. Try reading again the thing you JUST POSTED, including your quoting of my post. Now try to find what in my post conflicts with the true statement that “close to 100% of all male Jews and Muslims are circumcised.”. Unless you are even dumber than you seem, you won’t find any conflict when you look again, more carefully this time. But in case you are sitting there slackjawed and glassy-eyed, just not geting it, I’ll give you a few hints: —“Majority” does not mean “all”. —“Roughly” does not mean “precisely” or “identically”. —“This country” is different from “the world”. —Muslims and Jews make up only a very small percentage of the U.S. population. Now, if this didn’t take, feel free to come back at me with what specifically in my post actually is contradicted by your statement about Muslims and Jews. Specifically. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/498 "2018-12-06T18:39:05Z")
Andy, let’s try framing this in a way you might understand: How would you feel about a thread started by a ciswoman about the experience of being a rape victim, and when a transwoman chimed in with her experience, the ciswomen shouted her down, saying the thread was only for women-born-women, with “real vaginas”, to share their feelings about penis-in-vagina rape? That okay by you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/499 "2018-12-06T18:54:54Z")
Responded in the hijack-prevention thread: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=866776](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=866776) ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/500 "2018-12-06T19:33:33Z")
Hijack prevention thread appreciated. Just wanted to express an apology to SlackerInc here, and will go into more detail there. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057/501 "2018-12-06T19:34:46Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > He’s right about masturbation. The only technique that gets me off is the “Wisconsin lame-duck power grab.” Have I told you lately that I love you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genital-mutilation-of-young-girls-but-its-a-religious-thing/785057.md?page=26)