# Genocide/democide/politicide **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 18, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835 "2002-10-18T15:00:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/121 "2002-12-03T15:20:52Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Women and children were most definitely not targeted by Jackson at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend.\*\*\* > > > > If you have sources that say otherwise, please produce them. > > i _did_ produce one. it’s a book. “the knights of the horseshoe,” by william alexander caruthers. most likely you won’t be able to find this accoutn since it was written about 1835 i believe, but it is nonetheless one used often in scholarly research you will find cited. it does not tell of the mutilations which occurred however. Uh, you mean the 1845 **novel** by William Scott Caruthers, the one you can find listed [here](http://www.d.umn.edu/~sadams/Engl5572/5572bibl.htm) under the heading “Selected **Novels** , 1820-1865”? Do you mean to say that this 1845 **novel** is the book “used in scholarly research” on the Battle of Horseshoe Bend? Do tell. Please favor us with a passage from this novel which supports your position. (I won’t hold my breath while I wait.) Thank you for exposing yourself **jac**. **jac** also wrote: > [@](#): > > i do not feel like going through google and picking out conflicting sites to fight with you about because i know you have seen them anyway as you’ve gone along in your search engine erudition and chose to ignore those over ones more favorable to your purposes. **Translation** (for those not fluent in doubletalk): “I have no sources to support my position.” **jac** , just admit your error. Admit that every available source says Jackson gave safe passage to over 300 women and children at Horseshoe Bend. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/122 "2002-12-03T15:35:23Z")
> [@](#): > > -Perhaps few [Cherokee] took advantage of the offer [of US citizenship], but the offer was there, spelled out in the Treaty of New Echota. The very fact that this option was available tends to disprove the idea that Jackson was genocidal. Why make Citizenship an option if you mean to wipe out the Cherokee? you mean the treaty he later ignored? c’mon now, let’s think a little… and why would the cherokee want to become u.s. citizens at that point anyway? you forget they were their own sovereign nation, with their own territory at that point they believed they’d get to keep. why would you expect them to cede all that to another nation? [quote] Did I say that the offer was a good deal? Did I say that it represented a fair return for the Cherokee land? It did not. But that’s not the issue we’re debating. We are debating whether Andrew Jackson was genocidal, not whether he ripped off the Cherokee. (He _did_ rip them off, of course.) The fact that he gave the Cherokee the option of citizenship shows that he was not intent on wiping them out. He wanted their land, not their lives. (As for Jackson ignoring the Treaty of New Echota, do tell. How and when exactly did he ignore the provisions of that treaty? I linked the treaty earlier. Tell me which provision he breached.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/123 "2002-12-03T16:05:31Z")
Ah. Here we go. [The Knights of the Horseshoe](http://afplweb.af.public.lib.ga.us:80/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?fullRecord+23109+701+103616+1+-1): A Traditionary Tale of the Cocked Hat Gentry in the Old Dominion (Author: William Alexander Caruthers) Hell, the novel isn’t even about the Battle of Horseshoe Bend. It’s about colonial Virginia. More specifically, it’s about the exploits of Alexander Spotswood (1676-1740). Busted, **jac**. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/124 "2002-12-03T18:11:14Z")
-Ah. Here we go. The Knights of the Horseshoe: A Traditionary Tale of the Cocked Hat Gentry in the Old Dominion (Author: William Alexander Caruthers) Hell, the novel isn’t even about the Battle of Horseshoe Bend. It’s about colonial Virginia. More specifically, it’s about the exploits of Alexander Spotswood (1676-1740). Busted, jac. lol, with as many lies as you’ve been caught telling, who do you imagine you are to be ‘busting’ anyone else? hehe… i’ve never read the book, but seen the work cited, most prominently perhaps in ward churchill’s ‘a little matter of genocide’ (pg 277, cit. 457).’ it would be wise on both our parts to pick up the book and the particular passages relating to horseshoe bend, but you cannot discredit it at the same time, even if it doesn’t revolve around horseshoe bend necessarily. it can still contain parts relating to that, and apparently it does. works like his are considered ‘historical fiction,’ in the vein of a james alexander thom. while they are ‘fictional,’ they are fictionalized accounts of real history. many parts of them can be cited in scholarly works, but most shy away from that sort of thing, given the number of legitimate, non-fictionalized sources there are likely to be. however, the significance here in his work (which is cited as 1835, not 1845, and is simply 'knights of the horseshoe, not ‘… golden horseshoe’) is, fictionalized or no, having gotten some of the earliest literary accounts by which to use. historical fiction writers may wrap their text up in fictionalized accounts, but it’s all thoroughly researched. if you’ve ever read historical fiction, well, you’d get it. i may have goofed though in calling ‘knights of the horseshoe’ a book. it may well have been an article of caruthers as, looking through sources on the internet on him, i can see he wrote for magazines then as well. either way, if it was indeed wrong (that’s an ‘if’), it wasn’t on my account. check out stannard’s work, ‘american holocaust.’ ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/125 "2002-12-03T18:26:16Z")
The discussion is becoming too narrowly focussed on a single issue, in my opinion, to be continued in this forum. Those who want to continue the discussion of the treatment of Native Americans by European colonists can start a thread in GD. I will leave this thread open another day to allow someone to post a link to a GD thread in here, and then I will close this thread. Do **not** continue the discussion in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/126 "2002-12-03T18:53:36Z")
-Thank you for exposing yourself jac. i didn’t know you were into that sort of thing. you’re welcome though, ya know -Translation (for those not fluent in doubletalk): “I have no sources to support my position.” jac, just admit your error. Admit that every available source says Jackson gave safe passage to over 300 women and children at Horseshoe Bend. that’d be lying. that’s your field, not mine. so i ended up going through google anyway in the end. i shouldn’t have had to though, but here you are: -[http://www.adena.com/adena/usa/im/im017.htm](http://www.adena.com/adena/usa/im/im017.htm) this one’ll do. it doesn’t go much into the killing of noncombatants, but it does enough, i think. it tells of an instance where i child wandered outside and was killed, because he would’ve grown up to become a warrior. this was not a new sentiment nor one that would go away. ‘nits make lice’ is the justification they used for killing indian children often… it tells also of an old man at the battle, probably senile, seemingly unaware of the carnage around him, whom a soldier shot so he could brag back home how he’d killed an indian… it mentions that women and children were the only ones to be taken captive, but that’s not to imply all of them were. it mentions the supposed ‘accidental’ killing of women and children, and also how the warriors shot and killed hundreds as they tried to swim across the river, as i’d said earlier. women, and likely some children and elderly were included in those trying to escape by river (many of their canoes had been taken, so they had to swim mainly). -Did I say that the offer was a good deal? Did I say that it represented a fair return for the Cherokee land? It did not. But that’s not the issue we’re debating. We are debating whether Andrew Jackson was genocidal, not whether he ripped off the Cherokee. (He did rip them off, of course.) given what andrew jackson engaged in, both militarily (trying to wipe the upper creeks out, as well as the seminole for that matter) and politically, yes, there is no question he was genocidal. you are still not grasping the terminology here and that’s getting seriously old spoke. -The fact that he gave the Cherokee the option of citizenship shows that he was not intent on wiping them out. He wanted their land, not their lives. taking their lands was just a means to an end. that end was to wipe out the cherokee nation as it stood. in taking their lands, even wanting to assimilate them somewhat into american society, he was attempting to exterminate their national identity, in one way or another. please refer back to lemkin’s definition, the u.n. definitions i listed and see what that activity qualifies as. -(As for Jackson ignoring the Treaty of New Echota, do tell. How and when exactly did he ignore the provisions of that treaty? I linked the treaty earlier. Tell me which provision he breached.) excuse me. that the u.s. later ignored. that treaty was illegal anyhow. and it’s hard to tell whether or not a dent has been made regarding certain points because you never respond to certain ones. do you concede that native americans were victims of genocide as defined by lemkin and/or the u.n. (hell, even [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), but for some reason you weren’t seeing that)? that’s all i want to know. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/127 "2002-12-03T18:58:37Z")
jac - did you not read my post immediately above yours? I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, **once**. This applies to everyone: Do **not** continue the discussion in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/128 "2002-12-03T20:09:52Z")
arnold, i posted that last one before i saw your comment on the matter. i was also curious why this discussion, narrow as it may be, seems out of place to you. i was wondering i guess then what this particular forum was for. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/129 "2002-12-03T21:11:34Z")
This is for discussing the accuracy / inaccuracy / miscellaneous topics concering a Straight Dope Column. However, the discussion has now focussed exclusively on how the Native Americans were treated, which was **not** the subject of the column. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/130 "2002-12-03T21:28:24Z")
what was the column about? i snuck in about mid-way and had no idea the board worked that way. i’m new ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/131 "2002-12-03T21:46:29Z")
[The original column.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021018.html) Since you’re new here, **jac** , let me give you a link to the [Great Debates](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?daysprune=&forumid=7) forum. I gather **Arnold** is suggesting that our debate would be a better fit in that forum. If you want to start a thread there, we can go at it some more. Your call, but I think we’ve (more than) exhausted the topic anyway. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![PumaClaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PumaClaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PumaClaw)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/132 "2002-12-04T01:54:44Z")
Of course, the real objection is that as long as white people toss this issue around, it’s okay but don’t let some NDN burst their bubble and question their pearls of wisdom, aaye? \ ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/133 "2002-12-04T15:12:39Z")
**PumaClaw** , start a thread in Great Debates if you want to debate these issues further. No one is trying to muzzle you. We’re just being directed to another forum on this message board. Try it; I guarantee you’ll find vigorous debate there on any topic you wish to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![jac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@jac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jac)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/134 "2002-12-04T15:42:49Z")
i think that’ll be about it for now. ---
**Author:** ![Nigig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Nigig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nigig)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/135 "2002-12-12T20:34:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*While not denying the lengthy and depressing record of atrocities, imperialism, and double-dealing by Europeans in the Americas, the great bulk of the population decline of the native populations was the result of Old World diseases (to which the New World’s populations had no natural resistance) that were _accidentally_ introduced to the New World at a time when no one even understood the mechanism of infectious diseases. \*\* ```auto While some introduction of disease was accidental, there were instances of "intentional" germ warfare. Washingtons troops had been infected with smallpox and those infected blankets were shipped to reservation Indians during the winter. You cannot convince me that that was accidental. They HAD to know that the Indians would be infected. Anyone that had seen the spread KNEW that clothing etc. MUST be burned and NOT reused. Nigig ``` ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835/136 "2002-12-12T23:06:50Z")
Once again I will invite people to continue the discussion in the Great Debates forum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-democide-politicide/132835.md?page=6)