# Genocide?? Solution to over crowding in Prison **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577 "2004-01-04T03:24:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JoeBitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/51bf81/32.png) [@JoeBitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeBitt)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/1 "2004-01-04T03:24:40Z")
Just curious how everyone else feels about this topic. (_NOTE_ When I speak of Prisoners in this text, I am referring to repeat offenders and extreme criminals like murders, child molesters, and rapist. I exclude criminals in prison for drug trafficking, domestic abuse, or lesser crimes.) The prisons and jail cells are filling up quickly and are in need of a solution. There are some prisoners who have it easier in prison rather than on the streets. Prisoners have some privileges being in prison: cable TV, three meals a day, a bed to sleep on, a toilet, clothing on their backs, etc. Grant it, its not luxury in prison but it is better than worrying about your life on the streets. These prisoners have no value to the American society. Could genocide be an option to relieve the overfilling of the jails and prison cells? I believe many extreme criminals are beyond rehab due to a distrubing past. If you would like to use rehab as an excuse, please give me reason and proof of success. Thank You, ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/2 "2004-01-04T03:28:03Z")
Are you crazy? Is that your problem? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/3 "2004-01-04T03:39:22Z")
Well, some states already have the death penalty for crimes like murder (and in Louisiana, for rape, but there’s only recently been one person sentenced under that law, and there’s a question if it’ll stand up. ) Is it your suggestion that we extend the death penalty to child molestation? And, by the way, what you’re suggesting isn’t genocide. Genocide is the systematic elimination of a group of people. While you’re suggesting the systematic elimination of murderers, murderers really don’t count under that definition. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/4 "2004-01-04T03:47:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JoeBitt \* > **I believe many extreme criminals are beyond rehab** And how do you propose that we determine which prisoners are beyond rehab and which aren’t? Also, we all know that putting inmates on death row is quite expensive. How would your plan raise enough money to pay for all the appeals that the expansion of the death penalty would bring about? ---
**Author:** ![JoeBitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/51bf81/32.png) [@JoeBitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeBitt)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/5 "2004-01-04T03:52:54Z")
I have never, I stress never, have become so upset with anyone that I wanted to kill them (or rape; or molest). It takes a very deviant mind to reach that conclusion and commit the act. Drugs and therapy are not going to resolve anyones mental problems with murder, molestation, or rape. About the money issue, the appeals and cost of death penalty is bullshit. Thats another issue and another thread. Please, do not bring up that topic. ---
**Author:** ![gluteus\_maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@gluteus\_maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluteus_maximus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/6 "2004-01-04T04:03:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JoeBitt \* > \*\*Just curious how everyone else feels about this topic. > (_NOTE_ When I speak of Prisoners in this text, I am referring to repeat offenders and extreme criminals like murders, child molesters, and rapist. I exclude criminals in prison for drug trafficking, domestic abuse, or lesser crimes.) > > The prisons and jail cells are filling up quickly and are in need of a solution. There are some prisoners who have it easier in prison rather than on the streets. Prisoners have some privileges being in prison: cable TV, three meals a day, a bed to sleep on, a toilet, clothing on their backs, etc. Grant it, its not luxury in prison but it is better than worrying about your life on the streets. These prisoners have no value to the American society. Could genocide be an option to relieve the overfilling of the jails and prison cells? > > I believe many extreme criminals are beyond rehab due to a distrubing past. If you would like to use rehab as an excuse, please give me reason and proof of success. > > Thank You, \*\* You’re a high school teacher? :eek: Do you state these opinions of yours to your students? On what do you base your certitude of the impossibility of rehabilitation? Most enlightened people view rehabilitation as a solution, not an ‘excuse’. Actually, it’s starting to look like you used the tern ‘genocide’ correctly, as far as your intentions go. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/7 "2004-01-04T04:09:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JoeBitt \* > **Drugs and therapy are not going to resolve anyones mental problems with murder, molestation, or rape.** On what do you base that statement? > [@](#): > > **About the money issue, the appeals and cost of death penalty is bullshit.** The [numbers](http://www.uaa.alaska.edu/just/death/issues.html#cost) that I have seen would appear to indicate otherwise. > [@](#): > > \*\*Thats another issue and another thread. Please, do not bring up that topic. \*\* If you are proposing expansion of the death penalty, you must consider the cost factor, though. It may be an issue on its own, but it’s also important to the discussion at hand. ---
**Author:** ![laigle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@laigle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laigle)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/8 "2004-01-04T04:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JoeBitt \* > **I have never, I stress never, have become so upset with anyone that I wanted to kill them** Except, of course, with recidivist criminals, who you want to execute en masse. ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/9 "2004-01-04T04:20:49Z")
> [@](#): > > These prisoners have no value to the American society. Wrong. They are actually big business. > [@](#): > > For private business, prison labor is like a pot of gold. No strikes. No union organizing. No unemployment insurance or workers’ compensation to pay. No language problem, as in a foreign country. New leviathan prisons are being built with thousands of eerie acres of factories inside the walls. Prisoners do data entry for Chevron, make telephone reservations for TWA, raise hogs, shovel manure, make circuit boards, limousines, waterbeds, and lingerie for Victoria’s Secret. All at a fraction of the cost of “free labor.” > > Prisoners can be forced to work for pennies because they have no rights. Even the 14th Amendment to the Constitution which abolished slavery, excludes prisoners from its protections. > > And, more and more, prisons are charging inmates for basic necessities‹from medical care, to toilet paper, to use of the law library. Many states are now charging “room and board.” Berks County jail in Pennsylvania is charging inmates $10 per day to be there. California has similar legislation pending. So, while government cannot (yet) actually require inmates to work at private industry jobs for less than minimum wage, they are forced to by necessity. [-from this site.](http://www.prisonactivist.org/crisis/evans-goldberg.html) And, of course. prison building and prison jobs have become a [“growth industry”](http://www.prisonsucks.com/scans/building.html) in rural America. Does this addressing your hypothesis that ultra-violent criminals must be killed for the good of society? Or do you want me to find stories about The Murderer Who Learned To Love or somesuch? ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/10 "2004-01-04T07:30:07Z")
Who decides, and upon what criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/11 "2004-01-04T09:06:41Z")
JoeBitt, your country’s burgeoning prison population is due to the war on drugs. The murderers, child molesters and rapists are a very small percentage of the incarcerated. If your rationale for the death penalty is the overpopulated gaols, perhaps you’d be better off executing the abusive spouses, traffickers and other unnamed ‘lesser criminals’ who make up the bulk of the population. At first, I wanted to suggest you use a term like liquidation, euthanasia or negative eugenics rather than genocide. However, like gluteus maximus, I have a feeling that if you come back and flesh out the details for your Endlösung, genocide will seem perfectly apt for what you want. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/12 "2004-01-04T16:45:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JoeBitt \* > \*\*It takes a very deviant mind to reach that conclusion and commit the act. \*\* Utter nonsense. Murder is committed in the heat of the moment every day. Murder of innocents has been committed by our government during the past year. Murder is committed every time an innocent person is put to death in prison. A minister was arrested and charged with murder here recently because he killed two druggies who were robbing his church. These are arguably not deviant acts. Morally reprehensible perhaps, but not deviant. > [@](#): > > **The prisons and jail cells are filling up quickly and are in need of a solution.** So your solution is to kill them all and let god sort them out? Is that anything like a “final solution to the prisoner question”? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/13 "2004-01-04T20:42:19Z")
1. “Genocide” is not the correct term you wish to use. I believe “democide” fits better. 2. I urge you to leave the teaching profession _immediately_! The idea you have put forward, to massacre tens of thousands of your fellow Americans, for no better cause than saving a few bucks, is **morally repugnant!** I question whether it is appropriate for a person with your value system to be entrusted with teaching young people. ---
**Author:** ![gluteus\_maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@gluteus\_maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluteus_maximus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/14 "2004-01-04T21:02:14Z")
Considering the demographics of American prisons, ‘genocide’ is exactly what **JoeBitt** the concerned high school teacher is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/15 "2004-01-05T06:51:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 'possum stalker \* > \*\*Wrong. They are actually big business. > > [-from this site.](http://www.prisonactivist.org/crisis/evans-goldberg.html) \*\* This isn’t the case in every state. In my state, prisoners do work, but they only are able to do work which directly benefits state agencies. For example, they have a factory which makes office furniture-- but it cannot be sold to outside companies or consumers. It can only be used in state offices. The inmates farm, but the produce is only used in the prisons. The only telephone work they do is answering calls to the state’s 1-800 tourist number. They do earn tiny wages, but the goods at their commissary are proprotionatley priced. For a carton of cigarettes, they pay a fraction of the price you’d pay at the store. They have the same “buying power” as they would with normal wages. They accrue vacation and sick leave. My state does not force inmates to work. The prisons encourage it, especially when the inmate is learning a marketable job skill, but they cannot _make_ the inmate work if he/she does not want to. This state does not “charge” the inmates for room and board. All clothing, food and toiletries are provided to them for free, and they actually recieve a nominal ammount to buy extras. Most inmates chose to work because they can buy more things from the commissary, and also because it gives them something to do with their time. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/16 "2004-01-05T08:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JoeBitt \* > \*\* > The prisons and jail cells are filling up quickly and are in need of a solution. \*\* The final solution??? You think you’ve seen every type of loony and along comes a new one. This guy really needs a different job. ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/17 "2004-01-05T08:24:00Z")
**Lissa** , address the OP. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/18 "2004-01-05T18:14:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gluteus maximus \* > **You’re a high school teacher? :eek:** Well, there goes that cliche about “liberal educators.” ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/19 "2004-01-06T02:16:27Z")
All ethical issues aside the US has two million prisoners behind bars. How many of these are “extreme criminals” who are beyond rehabilitation? I would be surprised if it came close to even 100,000. So killing of the “extreme criminals” isn’t going to reduce the prison population signficantly. Incidentally if you look at the prison statistics the differences between the rates in the US and other Western countries are astonishing with the US about 7-8 times the rate of the others. Perhaps the US needs to be asking why it puts so many people behind bars in the first place particularly for drug offences. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577/20 "2004-01-07T22:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 'possum stalker \* > \*\ ***Lissa** , address the OP. \*\* Okay, I will: I think the idea is perposterous. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genocide-solution-to-over-crowding-in-prison/222577.md?page=2)