# Genre changing women writers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 18, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881 "2015-06-18T19:07:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/21 "2015-06-19T04:18:07Z")
> [@Absene\_Myth](#): > > Writing stream of consciousness in the novels was generally associated with men Modernists Faulkner, Proust, and Joyce. This is odd though because women are usually said to be so 'psychologically oriented." I associate it with Virginia Woolf as much as anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Absene\_Myth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/absene_myth/32/7322_2.png) [@Absene\_Myth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absene_Myth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/22 "2015-06-19T05:24:54Z")
Me too. For me Virginia Woolf’s novels takr her out as the overseeing (omniscient) author and let character, thought, feeling and emotion in. But it’s kind of about who’s in charge of defining things, Isn’t it? Sometimes people say women don’t write about “important” things like war and politics and making money. That’s why i wanted to talk about all this here. How do women writers matter now and before? Open to talk about all writing and writers men and women. I would love to talk some about the 21st century form of the writing. First we need to talk of what came before in the writers you value. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/23 "2015-06-19T05:41:36Z")
It seems like there are more women mystery writers than men, or at the least, women are very well-represented in the field. Further, it’s been that way for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/24 "2015-06-19T15:23:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It seems like there are more women mystery writers than men, or at the least, women are very well-represented in the field. Further, it’s been that way for a very long time. Women have almost always been the primary consumers of mystery novels - as long as you define mystery novels in certain ways. The hardboiled school, which became the private eye and noir, was almost exclusively men selling to men, and that broadened into the subgenres of the action hero (e.g. The Executioner), the spy, the thriller, and the crime novel. The more general category of the whodunit was split between male and female writers until the cozy evolved featuring mainly women writers. Other subgenres may have been more one-sided in the past - the police procedural, the caper, the courtroom drama, the paranormal - but have evolved to include both sexes to a greater degree. Amateur sleuths and historicals seem to have been split all along. Serial killers are now a genre written by everyone. The problem with generalizations is that they are too general. Here’s a good but not exhaustive [page from Writer’s Digest](http://www.writersdigest.com/qp7-migration-all-articles/qp7-migration-fiction/genredefinitions) on genre subcategories. I can’t keep up anymore, and when I look back I realize how much I missed when I thought I was reading everything. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/25 "2015-06-19T15:29:43Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Other than romance novels, women writers have always dealt with issues other than romance. In addition to those mentioned, there’s Shirley Jackson, Ursula K. Leguin, Agatha Christie, Daphne Du Maurier, Kate Wilhelm, Connie Willis, the Baroness Orczy (arguably the inventor of the first superhero, the Scarlet Pimpernel, and the first armchair detective), James Tiptree, Jr., Harriet Beecher Stowe, and many more. Say what you will about her poliics, but Ayn Rand moved a lot of product. (Which, come to think of it, _is_ what she’d say about her politics.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/26 "2015-06-19T16:38:58Z")
Yeah, I’m aware of the issue of where to split genres and subgenres off from each other. I’m an amateur librarian, and often have a hard time deciding which genre a particular book should be shelved with, due to those blurry lines (currently, I have both “mystery” and “thriller” separated out, because both are big enough to fill a shelf, but many books straddle the line between those two). Though even in the thriller section, where women are definitely a minority, there are still a fair number of them. ---
**Author:** ![Absene\_Myth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/absene_myth/32/7322_2.png) [@Absene\_Myth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absene_Myth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/27 "2015-06-19T19:22:56Z")
Do you think “mystery” is about who done it and thrillers are of the shocks and suspense of killing? Was Agatha Christie a mystety story writer? Why do you think she 'broke ranks" to write romances under the name Mary Westmacott? Was she impelled to revolt against the norms of genre? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/28 "2015-06-19T20:26:14Z")
[The Mary Westmacotts](http://www.agathachristie.com/about-christie/mathew-on-christie/the-mary-westmacotts/) Christie’s daughter writes about her motivations. Many genre writers, then and now, have traveled between genres. Genre restrictions are not so much the design of writers but of publishers and readers, who band together in demanding more of the same. The result is that moving from one genre to another, or even to another subgenre within a genre, or even from one detective to another detective, is often done under a pen name. A writer’s name is a brand: it takes on a certain meaning that publishers don’t like to dilute. There’s been a very long argument about whether this is sensible. Many readers obviously want to read everything a favorite writer puts out, whether it is like a previous book or not. Other readers are turned off by variation and that makes them skittish about buying the new book under that name. Even so, many writers feel so constricted by the walls of their genre that they need the break to do something different, even if it doesn’t bring the sales and monetary return of their name brand. The number of mystery writers who have done this, inside and outside the mystery genre, is legion. It helps tremendously if you can write such a book in three days, as Christie did. Your regular publisher doesn’t breathe down your neck during the detour. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/29 "2015-06-19T20:59:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you think “mystery” is about who done it and thrillers are of the shocks and suspense of killing? The line I draw is that in a mystery, you don’t know whodunnit, but you probably do in a thriller. In a Clancy book, for instance, you usually know right from the start that it’s the Russians, or the Iranians, or the North Koreans, or whoever. The tension comes from the fact that they’re probably trying to kill the protagonist. Even if the villain is trying to kill the protagonist, though, if the protagonist doesn’t know substantively who they are, it’s a mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/30 "2015-06-19T21:06:40Z")
You read a mystery to find out what _did happen_; you read a thriller to find out _will happen._ ---
**Author:** ![Absene\_Myth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/absene_myth/32/7322_2.png) [@Absene\_Myth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absene_Myth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/31 "2015-06-20T00:01:25Z")
You read a mystery to ponder. You read a thriller to shiver. ---
**Author:** ![Absene\_Myth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/absene_myth/32/7322_2.png) [@Absene\_Myth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absene_Myth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/32 "2015-06-20T00:04:25Z")
Back to the thread, does anyone think women mystery/thriller writers have changed over time? Do women writers write hard-core thrillers, full of what I could call scrupulous violence and a plethora of gory details, or does the cliche idea that women provider feelings pertain? Is anyone reading women thriller writers now? I’m kind of ignorant about women writing now so I’d like to know what you’re reading. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/33 "2015-06-20T01:29:29Z")
> [@Absene\_Myth](#): > > Do women writers write hard-core thrillers, full of what I could call scrupulous violence and a plethora of gory details Val McDermid certainly is in that area. It would help us, I think, if you could tell us what the paper you are trying to write is about, no? ---
**Author:** ![Absene\_Myth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/absene_myth/32/7322_2.png) [@Absene\_Myth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absene_Myth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/34 "2015-06-20T01:42:53Z")
I’m not trying to write a paper. I started this thread to learn about women writers around the world that you are reading And ways that these writers might be changing the “rules” of writing (deliberately or inadvertently). Want this to be a place where we could say anything, ask all questions and tell us about the writers you have found and why you like or hate them. We are getting a rhythm. I suggest peo ---
**Author:** ![Absene\_Myth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/absene_myth/32/7322_2.png) [@Absene\_Myth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absene_Myth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/35 "2015-06-20T01:44:55Z")
Oops People just talk at random about a woman writer, saying snything you want to. As i said, i want to learn who’s writing what. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/36 "2015-06-20T02:40:33Z")
> [@Absene\_Myth](#): > > I’m not trying to write a paper. I started this thread to learn about women writers around the world that you are reading > And ways that these writers might be changing the “rules” of writing (deliberately or inadvertently). > > Want this to be a place where we could say anything, ask all questions and tell us about the writers you have found and why you like or hate them. > > We are getting a rhythm. > > I suggest peo > [@Absene\_Myth](#): > > Oops > People just talk at random about a woman writer, saying snything you want to. > > As i said, i want to learn who’s writing what. You have a five-minute window in which you can go back and edit your threads. That’s always useful but especially when you accidentally hit Submit Reply. An Edit button will appear next to the Quote button on the lower right. Click on that. You can do a simple edit and hit Save, or to do more complex work and get a new Preview Changes button click on Go Advanced and then Save Changes. ---
**Author:** ![Absene\_Myth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/absene_myth/32/7322_2.png) [@Absene\_Myth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absene_Myth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/37 "2015-06-20T03:15:08Z")
I’ve been reading prize-winning Anne Carson who has an amazing history of being many things: a poet, classicist, Greek translator and writer of two gripping novels–Autobiography of Red and Red Doc, plus numerous volumes of poetry and essays. A review of her book, Red Doc says, “Anne Carson never met a genre whose boundaries she didn’t blow to smithereens.” She writes science fiction (her way), bildungsroman (growing up novels her way), books with very short chapters on the most profound things (again her way). This is kind of what I would like to see what you think in terms of who you’re reading. Her Red Doc has almost no punctuation and the text of the novel appears in the center of every page. This is not like showing inner thought or anything. It’s as though the edges have been taken off things. Do you remember writers whose writing was so individual that the edges came off things? Ursula Le Guin ? what writers. We can even make lists which will give us new books to read and new ways to look at those books too perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Absene\_Myth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/absene_myth/32/7322_2.png) [@Absene\_Myth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absene_Myth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/38 "2015-06-20T05:00:32Z")
How about Silent Spring, Black Beauty and Disry of Anne Frank as genre disrupting non fiction? There are so many books which are part fiction, part nin-fiction. Let’s make a list of some of them. Silent Spring Black Beauty The Diary if Anne Frank ( pleaee copy and paste) ---
**Author:** ![Absene\_Myth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/absene_myth/32/7322_2.png) [@Absene\_Myth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absene_Myth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/39 "2015-06-20T20:32:04Z")
Good day. Where oh where has our energy gone? i wrote a bit about Anne Carson. Someone else tell of women writers who have made an impression on you in their variety, their energy, their excellence. Their trying new things. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881/40 "2015-06-21T02:39:23Z")
[Kat Richardson](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=kat+richardson), urban fantasy. Great writer, and great to talk to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-changing-women-writers/722881.md?page=3)