# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/241 "2011-05-24T17:08:48Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You, um, think I’m lying? We’ll just wait for the counter-claim then. > > Anywhere, here’s my PM: OK, great. Now that I’ve got a look at it, please explain again how it is that you were confused? Was it the presence of ALE or the presence of CARS in the Opening post that confused you? And, I’m sure you’d love a counter-claim, especially if the Scum have a strongman. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/242 "2011-05-24T17:10:27Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > And having said THAT, I’ll further explain that I really do suspect there are third parties in this game, based on my own PM. That’s why I was looking for a way to explain it using just the information in the thread. Since my PM mentions two factions, I flipped back to the first thread to see what the name of the bad guys was. And everything else happened exactly as described earlier. It’s a shame you have such an important role and yet you chose to screw up your postings in exactly the same way as an inattentive third-party player would have done. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/243 "2011-05-24T17:11:04Z")
Astral, can you also describe how that PM led you to believe that there were 3rd parties? If anything, the PM as described would lead me to believe that there are not third parties. Or were there PMs between you and Red that clarified them and why haven’t you posted those as well? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/244 "2011-05-24T17:11:32Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Again, we’ll just wait for the inevitable counter-claim. This is a closed game. We have no particular evidence a detective exists. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/245 "2011-05-24T17:13:56Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I’m guessing this is directed at me. Red has intimated that the color can provide hints about the game state. Since he’s now used two different ways to describe the opposing force, I’d guess that there’s a scum team that can communicate, plus a 3rd party or two that can not communicate, and together they form the “Associated League of Evil.” Here you were ‘guessing’ there were 3rd party who would not communicate. Also, here you seem to think the 3rd party members are a part of the ALE. Which your PM indicates you can detect. Yet you’re a weak detective who cannot detect them. That’s enough for me **Vote: Astral** ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/246 "2011-05-24T17:16:20Z")
[QUOTE=Red Skeezix] [QUOTE=Astral Rejection] [QUOTE=Red Skeezix] Name: R. Daneel Olivaw Universe/Story: The Caves of Steel Role: Weak Cop Alignment: Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords Powers: Each night you may choose a player to investigate. You will learn whether or not that player is a member of the Associated League of Evil. Wincondition: You win when all threats to the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords have been vanquished AND at least one member of the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords are alive. [/QUOTE] This sounds like “regular” cop. What are the limitations? [/QUOTE] You can only determine if a player is a member of the Associated League of Evil or not. A full cop investigates a player and determines their alignment. [/QUOTE] That’s my discussion with Red. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/247 "2011-05-24T17:19:26Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Really? **TWO** people now think I’m lying, even though my role is exactly in line with what I was trying to do before I had to claim? What did I do, set this up specifically so I’d have to claim? > > Again, we’ll just wait for the inevitable counter-claim. Since it’s never coming, I’d suggest you look for other people to lynch. Okay, one: “weak cop” is not likely to be counter-claimed. There could be five detectives in this game hypothetically, none of whom have precisely the same role as your claim and none of whom would therefore be likely to counter. Two: “what you did” would presumably be: you screwed up and are now trying to cover your exposed rear end in the most consistent way possible. Three: Your claim is difficult-to-impossible for any third party role I’ve ever heard of around here to keep up with indefinitely, and most third parties do need to survive indefinitely. I also still don’t really see your initial mistake as being more likely to come from scum than from town. That the claim “fits” scum so well might just be a coincidence. But it might not, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/248 "2011-05-24T17:20:07Z")
**Vote Special Ed.** It blows my mind you would vote for the claimed detective on day 1, with no counter-claims, without even waiting for everyone to check in, without remembering that I didn’t check my PM last night and couldn’t remember the factions names, without remembering that I was trying to “prove” the existence of third parties for the town’s benefit, without explaining why I would do this as scum, without explaining why I would have spoken up at all if I had something to hide. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/249 "2011-05-24T17:22:58Z")
Respond to Ed’s point. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/250 "2011-05-24T17:26:07Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > That’s my discussion with Red. Based on that discussion, if I thought that ALE included third parties, (which, unless my timeline is funky, I believe you did at this point.) I’d think I WOULD be able to identify all threats to town. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/251 "2011-05-24T17:26:23Z")
Haven’t I been responding all last night and today? I talked to Red when role PMs went out. A day later, while taking a five minute break from class, I got confused on what team name was what, and thought I had found a way to explain what I had learned from Red without revealing my role. Since I forgot the team names, \*and I thought Slumdwelling Raftlords were the scum team," I thought the new term (Associated League of Evil) was my chance to do so. At this point, just vote to lynch me if you don’t believe me. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/252 "2011-05-24T17:42:29Z")
Confirming. Finally! the streak is broken and I’m neither scum nor vanilla. It’s good to be back. 😃 Sorry for being late, but I don’t play on weekends and was on bed rest yesterday. Also, I’m not going to be around as much this game, but I’ll try to check in at least once a weekday. By the way, ending the Day on a Monday holiday means my last contribution for the Day is going to be on Friday. > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Translating: There are two kinds of third parties in Mafia - those that can win with either side (“survivors”) and those that try to win on their own (“play-for-keeps” or PFKs) - an example of the latter is the “serial killer” role, who kills one player every night and wins if everyone else is dead. Personally, I do not use the phrase “PFK” because I always play for keeps and believe everyone else should as well. Why play a competitive game if you don’t want to win? I prefer “inclusive third party” for those with whose win conditions do not exclude others from winning, and “exclusive third party” for those whose do. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Almost indubitably, the scum know who they are. Whether they can talk amongst themselves right now, I don’t know. In one of my recent games as scum, the moderator did not tell scum who their comrades were in the role PM and we were not allowed to talk during the Day, so we effectively didn’t know who the other scum were until Day Two. It’s actually a nice bonus to the scum, since they do not have any perfect information to slip. > [@special\_ed](#): > > My alignment sounded so dang scummy. Raftdwelling Slumlords is not a very pleasant sounding thing. Are you some sort of socialist? Slumlords are the upstanding members of our community who extract the maximum amount of rent from optimally maintained properties. Without them, our real estate investments would surely decrease in value. 😉 > [@Stanislaus](#): > > It comes down to this: if you’ve got a PM telling you that you’re CARS, you can’t really think that CARS are the opposing force. On the other hand, if your PM doesn’t tell you this, it’s much easier to think that both CARS and ALE are antiTown. If you were a third party yourself, for example, you might be unclear on the names of both Town and Scum factions. > > So I’m pretty sure Astral isn’t Town. However, I think it’s probably a bit more likely that he’s third-party rather than scum. And while I don’t object to third-party lynchings, it’s probably better to try to find scum. So: > > **unvote Astral** I think this analysis is spot-on, but the conclusion is wrong. Unless we have strong indications that a third party has a non-exclusive win condition, we must assume that them winning will be a loss for us. Remember, we win when all threats are removed, not when all scum are lynched. Thus, all third parties must be eliminated, unless there’s reliable info to the contrary. However, once could make a case that our Vigilante (that is, a town player who can kill at Night, possibly with some restrictions) should get the first shot at any third parties. Lynching really is best used for scum. Therefore, I suggest we not lynch **Astral** ToDay, and instead lynch them ToMorrow, if they are still alive. > [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > NETA: Is it generally accepted that 3rd party are not a threat till we near end-game, at which time they “need to be dealt with” if known? No, third parties need to be dealt with while the town has mislynches available to do it with. Closer to end game, when the number of mislynches is likely to be lower, we need to be focusing on lynching scum, period. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You, um, think I’m lying? We’ll just wait for the counter-claim then. > > Anywhere, here’s my PM: > > > [@](#): > > > > Name: R. Daneel Olivaw > > Universe/Story: The Caves of Steel > > Role: Weak Cop > > Alignment: Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords > > Powers: Each night you may choose a player to investigate. You will learn whether or not that player is a member of the Associated League of Evil. > > Wincondition: You win when all threats to the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords have been vanquished AND at least one member of the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords are alive. Interesting. Why should we expect a counter claim? A complete alignment investigator would not counter-claim you, because it’s a different role. This is a mostly safe claim of convenience. Normally, I would advocate lynching. However, since we can potentially get the identities of scum, I suggest keep **Astral** alive for a few Days. If they have not given us a scum by then, we should lynch them. I will vote for **Astral** on Day Four unless they’ve produced a scum to lynch. That’ll give them three Nights. > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Well, that’s not a third party PM unless third party detectives are in vogue all of a sudden. That claim would be trivial for scum to fake, though. Huh? A weak investigation power is perfect for a third party–useful enough for town to think twice about lynching, not powerful enough to upset the balance too much. Agreed about trivial for scum to fake. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/253 "2011-05-24T18:14:09Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Normally, I would advocate lynching. However, since we can potentially get the identities of scum, I suggest keep **Astral** alive for a few Days. If they have not given us a scum by then, we should lynch them. You would really, honestly normally advocate lynching a claimed town detective on Day 1, with no counter-claim on the table? For everyone who thinks this is reasonable: how many games have you played here on the Dope with multiple detectives? One, maybe? TI’m fairly certain every game I’ve played has had a single cop. One. That would be me, in this particular game. My weakness implies there are third parties. Perhaps the scum team doesn’t have a godfather, to balance my weakness? I don’t know. Maybe there really is another detective, but I’d consider it unlikely, since two detectives would be really pretty overpowered. So, once again, I have to ask: which is more likely? That a scum Astral spoke up about third parties for no reason whatsoever, and got confused about the team names? Or that a town Astral saw that he had an awesome power and raced back to the forums, and then got confused about the team names during a five-minute break from class? Which is really, honestly, more likely? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/254 "2011-05-24T18:15:20Z")
Of course, not that it really matters. If the scum have a roleblocker, which most large-game scum teams do, I’m useless anyway. So I’ll have exactly no way to prove my powers at this point. I guess we’ll see toMorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/255 "2011-05-24T18:20:00Z")
One more thing, Astral. Explain how this: > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > For the record, though, my PM is also different from the posted one. (clarified in the next post that “PM” means “wincon”) is consistent with your mistake about CARS and ALE. The mistake assumes you have forgotten your role PM almost entirely. The comment there necessitates that you do remember your wincon. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/256 "2011-05-24T18:24:40Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Confirming. Finally! the streak is broken and I’m neither scum nor vanilla. It’s good to be back. 😃 LOL. > [@](#): > > Huh? A weak investigation power is perfect for a third party–useful enough for town to think twice about lynching, not powerful enough to upset the balance too much. Agreed about trivial for scum to fake. My sticking point is the lack of precedent and lack of imagination as regards a plausible wincon for such a role. “Investigate at least two scum and two town and you fly off the winner”? Ironically I just recently had a very non-standard third party role myself, but I’ve never seen anything remotely similar around here. Even the third-party-coalition game over on Idlemafia didn’t try to shoehorn in a 3rd party investigator, as much as it would have helped. (Mahaloth, you totally should have been one of us.) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/257 "2011-05-24T18:26:20Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > My sticking point is the lack of precedent and lack of imagination as regards a plausible wincon for such a role. “Investigate at least two scum and two town and you fly off the winner”? The answer to that, as to all questions about “what kind of fucked-up role would that be?” is Screamers Mafia, specifically Alka Seltzer’s role. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/258 "2011-05-24T18:34:19Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Personally, I do not use the phrase “PFK” because I always play for keeps and believe everyone else should as well. Why play a competitive game if you don’t want to win? > > I prefer “inclusive third party” for those with whose win conditions do not exclude others from winning, and “exclusive third party” for those whose do. Are you contrary just to be contrarian? C’mon, man, tell the truth. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/259 "2011-05-24T18:35:01Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > One more thing, Astral. Explain how this: > > (clarified in the next post that “PM” means “wincon”) > > is consistent with your mistake about CARS and ALE. The mistake assumes you have forgotten your role PM almost entirely. The comment there necessitates that you do remember your wincon. I certainly couldn’t have just remembered mine was longer. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/260 "2011-05-24T18:38:29Z")
Not the same thing; his theft power led logically to his win condition. People were even suspecting exactly what it was ahead of time, right down to guessing (correctly) that he was not win-stealing. Where are you at right now on Astral, Tom? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=14)