# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/261 "2011-05-24T18:39:05Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You would really, honestly normally advocate lynching a claimed town detective on Day 1, with no counter-claim on the table? > > For everyone who thinks this is reasonable: how many games have you played here on the Dope with multiple detectives? One, maybe? TI’m fairly certain every game I’ve played has had a single cop. One. That would be me, in this particular game. Closed games? More than one have had a strong cop and a weak cop–in fact my first game did. Many more have had no role investigators at all. Especially in a closed game, making unfounded assumptions about the setup is unwise. We have no evidence, zero, none, that a cop exists at all, thus a counter-claim cannot be expected. > [@](#): > > So, once again, I have to ask: which is more likely? That a scum Astral spoke up about third parties for no reason whatsoever, and got confused about the team names? Or that a town Astral saw that he had an awesome power and raced back to the forums, and then got confused about the team names during a five-minute break from class? My thought is that you’re a third-party, based on your utter confusion regarding all the faction names. You know that there are third parties (being one) so you’re trying to prove your value to town by dropping that tidbit. “Weak scum-only detective” is a very useful power for a 3rd-party to have, and would theoretically keep you alive for a fair bit of the game until/unless it could be proven that you were a PFK. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/262 "2011-05-24T18:40:14Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > My sticking point is the lack of precedent and lack of imagination as regards a plausible wincon for such a role. “Investigate at least two scum and two town and you fly off the winner”? Why wouldn’t they have the survivor wincon? “You win with either town or scum if you survive to the end of the game”. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/263 "2011-05-24T18:43:00Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > Normally, I would advocate lynching. However, since we can potentially get the identities of scum, I suggest keep **Astral** alive for a few Days. If they have not given us a scum by then, we should lynch them. > > You would really, honestly normally advocate lynching a claimed town detective on Day 1, with no counter-claim on the table? You have misquoted me for apparently scummy purposes. The full quote is: > [@Pleonast](#): > > This is a mostly safe claim of convenience. Normally, I would advocate lynching. However, since we can potentially get the identities of scum, I suggest keep **Astral** alive for a few Days. If they have not given us a scum by then, we should lynch them. Note the sentence you elided? That is what I was referring to when I said “normally, I would advocate lynching”. And, yes, I do normally advocate lynching a player who makes a safe, convenient claim. Those are exactly the sort of claims scum make to avoid being lynched. And investigation power in a closed game does not give us a clue about alignment. Especially a weak investigation power. So you’ll need to prove your alignment by doing pro-town things, like identifying scum. And I think giving you three Days to do it is reasonable. > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > My sticking point is the lack of precedent and lack of imagination as regards a plausible wincon for such a role. “Investigate at least two scum and two town and you fly off the winner”? In a new game, with a closed rules set, I do not think it’s helpful to rule out possibilities so quickly. Moderators can and do use novel roles, sometimes. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Are you contrary just to be contrarian? C’mon, man, tell the truth. 😃 No, I’m not. 😃 I just think terms should be descriptive. Calling some third party roles “PFK” is like calling townies “newbies” or scum “thinkers”. No relation of the term to the role. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/264 "2011-05-24T18:44:57Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Where are you at right now on Astral, Tom? Really don’t think he’s third party, unless he has some weird wincon relating to dying from a night kill. If you’re trying to survive to the end of the game, claiming cop is not the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/265 "2011-05-24T18:49:40Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Why wouldn’t they have the survivor wincon? “You win with either town or scum if you survive to the end of the game”. Are you serious? He’s claiming a power that is directly and only anti-scum. What is the point of this question? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/266 "2011-05-24T18:52:56Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Really don’t think he’s third party, unless he has some weird wincon relating to dying from a night kill. If you’re trying to survive to the end of the game, claiming cop is not the way to go. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/267 "2011-05-24T18:54:22Z")
Semi-NETA @ Zerial – ignore my last question, I missed your post up there. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/268 "2011-05-24T18:56:02Z")
Could be a Jester, I suppose, but I don’t think Red’s the kind of mod to do that to us. I could also be totally and completely wrong on that point. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/269 "2011-05-24T19:38:08Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Personally, I do not use the phrase “PFK” because I always play for keeps and believe everyone else should as well. Why play a competitive game if you don’t want to win? Well, sure. But it’s a team game. Playing for Keeps would indicate that you are trying to be spectacular, even at the cost of your team’s victory (and I would know). > [@Astral's Role PM](#): > > Role: Weak Cop > Alignment: Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords > Powers: Each night you may choose a player to investigate. You will learn whether or not that player is a member of the Associated League of Evil. > Wincondition: You win when all threats to the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords have been vanquished AND at least one member of the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords are alive. I don’t think Astral’s being entirely honest. I’ll buy, tentatively, that he’s down. But it strikes me as odd that his role is described as “weak cop”, when the power description looks an awful lot like a regular cop. I bet there’s some sort of restriction or glitch he has that he wisely excised to avoid giving the scum a road map to destruction. And if that’s true, then it’s fairly likely that there’s another town investigative role somewhere out there. Maybe not even a cop–maybe just like, a watcher or a tracker–someone who couldn’t counter-claim but is part of the investigative town forces regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/270 "2011-05-24T19:40:20Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Are you serious? He’s claiming a power that is directly and only anti-scum. What is the point of this question? I’m saying, I could see a role (especially in a doc-heavy game) that was a 3rd-party minor investigator with a normal survivor wincon. The only thing we know FOR SURE about Astral is that his PM resulted in him getting confused about which side he was on. Hell, wild speculation, if he has some kind of nightkill resistance (not unheard of), a cop claim gets town off his nuts AND he’s still safe from scum, for example. > [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Could be a Jester, I suppose, but I don’t think Red’s the kind of mod to do that to us. It’s my personal opinion that if there is an unannounced Jester (or any other win-stealing role that wins by being killed) in a game, it is not actually a game of mafia and the moderator needs to be beaten with a live polar bear taped to a stick. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/271 "2011-05-24T19:52:27Z")
I had to look up the Jester role. That’s gotta be exceedingly rare, right? I mean, who would do that? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/272 "2011-05-24T19:53:11Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Well, sure. But it’s a team game. Playing for Keeps would indicate that you are trying to be spectacular, even at the cost of your team’s victory (and I would know). > > I don’t think Astral’s being entirely honest. I’ll buy, tentatively, that he’s down. But it strikes me as odd that his role is described as “weak cop”, when the power description looks an awful lot like a regular cop. I bet there’s some sort of restriction or glitch he has that he wisely excised to avoid giving the scum a road map to destruction. And if that’s true, then it’s fairly likely that there’s another town investigative role somewhere out there. Maybe not even a cop–maybe just like, a watcher or a tracker–someone who couldn’t counter-claim but is part of the investigative town forces regardless. I already posted my discussion with Red on this very matter, along with my own guess about what it means. I haven’t left anything out. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/273 "2011-05-24T19:56:30Z")
**Red, have scum been provided with fake/cover PM’s?** ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/274 "2011-05-24T19:58:19Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > I had to look up the Jester role. That’s gotta be exceedingly rare, right? I mean, who would do that? I don’t believe I’ve ever played in a game with a jester role. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/275 "2011-05-24T20:03:51Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t believe I’ve ever played in a game with a jester role. At the risk of reminding everyone of what a tard I can be, adding a Jester sounds disctinctly like something _I’d_ do. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/276 "2011-05-24T20:17:12Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t believe I’ve ever played in a game with a jester role. Me neither and it’s not much of a fun role to play and I doubt Red included it. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/277 "2011-05-24T20:21:40Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I certainly couldn’t have just remembered mine was longer. That answer doesn’t help as much as I thought it might. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/278 "2011-05-24T20:25:19Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t believe I’ve ever played in a game with a jester role. IIRC, I’ve played with one. Who wasn’t known to be in game, and who “won” on day one–the outcry was so great that we kept running the game anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/279 "2011-05-24T20:26:57Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Me neither and it’s not much of a fun role to play and I doubt Red included it. See, I dunno. If everyone knows that there is a jester, then I can see it being hilariously fun to try to get lynched without obviously trying to get lynched. Best sort-of example I’ve seen was a game with a recruiting jester variant (I think it was Terminator 2 mafia), in which one of the scum, if lynched before a certain night, recruited a random townie to the scum team as they died. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/280 "2011-05-24T20:29:40Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > See, I dunno. If everyone knows that there is a jester, then I can see it being hilariously fun to try to get lynched without obviously trying to get lynched. OK, I’ll admit that could be fun. But to have it and not announce it…lame. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=15)