# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/281 "2011-05-24T20:39:27Z")
I was a Jester once. The game was actually kind of ingenious. 7 or so players, no mafia, no night phases, a couple of power roles with impact on the votes. (I could break ties, myself.) I wound up winning with three or four players left due to some epic townie fail; they essentially allowed me to lynch myself. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/282 "2011-05-24T20:40:57Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t believe I’ve ever played in a game with a jester role. I included a non-win-stealing jester once. it was Idle Thoughts. never again ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/283 "2011-05-24T20:44:10Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > I had to look up the Jester role. That’s gotta be exceedingly rare, right? I mean, who would do that? In our mafia group, at least, they are considered unsporting, especially without advance moderator warning. I seriously doubt that there’s a jester in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/284 "2011-05-24T21:55:07Z")
This third party stuff is a little confusing. I’ll just write my thoughts down and maybe that will clarify them. **Astral Rejection** can supposedly tell if people are Alliance of Evil, but not their alignment. Assuming the alignments are scum town 3rd party there could be people who are in the Alliance of Evil but are town, or some third party. Third parties may or may not be a threat to town, but if they are in the Alliance of Evil they probably are. I don’t really understand the significance of 3rd parties that are anti-town, but not scum, but OK. I couldn’t understand before who **Astral** could know that he was town, but not know what the team name is. But if he is a cop, then he knows he is obviously town, and maybe just glossed over the long name. That sounds plausible to me. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/285 "2011-05-24T21:57:14Z")
Games have had scum cops before. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/286 "2011-05-24T22:10:10Z")
I finally had time to look over the thread on my actual desktop instead of my phone, and I did notice some things. First: > [@Zeriel](#): > > **Red, should we expect that power roles (such as may or may not exist) will have powers related to their role names/canon?** Red’s answer: > [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > No Comment. Here is **Astral Rejection** ’s PM as posted: > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Name: R. Daneel Olivaw > Universe/Story: The Caves of Steel > Role: Weak Cop > Alignment: Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords > Powers: Each night you may choose a player to investigate. You will learn whether or not that player is a member of the Associated League of Evil. > Wincondition: You win when all threats to the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords have been vanquished AND at least one member of the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords are alive. See that name? R. Daneel Olivaw? Well, I had to Wiki it since I didn’t know who it was, and wanted to compare it to my own supplied name. Well, in the Wiki article R. Daneel Olivaw was a robot who was indistinguishable from humans, who was a murder detective. This character had a power to “read” the emotional content of people’s minds. So, what do I get from that? First, **Zeriel** ’s question has been answered, power roles do have a link between their powers and their name. Second, looks like Red did a good job finding good characters (even if I don’t know any of them it seems!) for his roles. Third, **Astral** is most likely telling the truth. If he just changed his alignment from scum to CARS he would probably have forgotten to change the name to a good guy as well (assuming cover roles were not given by Red, still waiting on the answer to that question). Fourth, since the character in question was a good guy, but couldn’t be distinguished from a human except under close scrutiny, it is still possible **Astral** might be some sort of 3rd party, but I still believe he is Pro-Town. I want to hear from **Special Ed** why he voted for **Astral** after he claimed, but not before. While it looked like Ed had questions about Astral’s comments, he wasn’t suspicious enough to vote BEFORE Astral claimed, but as soon as he did, Ed voted for him. I find that weird, and scummy. > [@Pleonast](#): > > Confirming. Finally! the streak is broken and I’m neither scum nor vanilla. It’s good to be back. 😃 Yea, right. This might be only my 2nd game, but you claimed to be a “generic thundercat” in the last one, while being the godfather. You also claimed to be Vanilla town in Glasnost (the only other game I actually looked at) while being the scum roleblocker. And, if you are neither scum, nor vanilla, then that must make you a “power role”, and in one of the mafia guides I read said that claiming “power role” is an anti-town claim, being worse then worthless. > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > The answer to that, as to all questions about “what kind of fucked-up role would that be?” is Screamers Mafia, specifically Alka Seltzer’s role. Mind explaining to us newbies what happened in Screamers Mafia, and what Alka Seltzer’s role and win condition was? ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/287 "2011-05-24T22:26:04Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > See that name? R. Daneel Olivaw? Well, I had to Wiki it since I didn’t know who it was, and wanted to compare it to my own supplied name. Well, in the Wiki article R. Daneel Olivaw was a robot who was indistinguishable from humans, who was a murder detective. This character had a power to “read” the emotional content of people’s minds. > > So, what do I get from that? First, **Zeriel** ’s question has been answered, power roles do have a link between their powers and their name. No, it means that in _this particular_ instance, _If_ **Astral** isn’t lying, the name and the role happened to match up. Red’s a good enough GM with enough experience under his belt that I find it highly unlikely that we can determine anything specific about powers or alignment from people’s names. Look up LOTR Mafia for an example of what can happen if the GM isn’t careful about such things. > [@](#): > > And, if you are neither scum, nor vanilla, then that must make you a “power role”, and in one of the mafia guides I read said that claiming “power role” is an anti-town claim, being worse then worthless. Or third party. Or PFK. On the one hand claiming “power role” puts WiFoM in front of both Town and Scum – is he or isn’t he? – but… But I will agree that he’s got that magic bag hanging out there, but it’s typical Pleonast play which makes it neither a Scum Tell nor a Town Tell. I hate it for reasons I’ve ranted about elsewhere (and others have ranted about far more eloquently than I ever could) but at least it gets us talking. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/288 "2011-05-24T22:27:04Z")
Oh, and I didn’t play in or read Screamers, so I can’t comment on that. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/289 "2011-05-24T22:56:22Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Mind explaining to us newbies what happened in Screamers Mafia, and what Alka Seltzer’s role and win condition was? Screamers mafia had all kinds of strange roles that interacted in ways the mod didn’t expect. Alka’s role was that of basically a thief third party - he knew that there were four roles in the game (3 Town, 1 Scum) who carried berynium (the local version of unobtainium); he claimed to be a limited investigator, and in fact played roughly that way. In the course of the game he confirmed 2 Townies and discovered the hidden scum, then left the game with a victory (which he ultimately shared with Normal, who was a scum who was not in communication with the rest of her team). ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/290 "2011-05-24T22:57:33Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > I want to hear from **Special Ed** why he voted for **Astral** after he claimed, but not before. While it looked like Ed had questions about Astral’s comments, he wasn’t suspicious enough to vote BEFORE Astral claimed, but as soon as he did, Ed voted for him. I find that weird, and scummy. I thought I was clear. Obviously before Astral claimed I was pressing him hard based on what appeared to be mistakes made by a possible Scum. After he claimed, I voted for him because his claim didn’t make sense. 1. He didn’t immediately post his role PM 2. He didn’t immediately post his PM conversations with the moderator 3. He was adamant about there being no counter-claim. A Scum would want to at least out the Detective if they are going down. 4. He knew, from his PM, that he could find the ALE member. 5. Even after having a conversation about red regarding his PM, he forgot he was CARS. but most damning of all… 1. He posted earlier that he thought that the 3rd parties were all part of the ALE, and yet, his PM very clearly states that he can detect ALE members, so why would he think he could detect only Scum and not 3rd party? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/291 "2011-05-24T23:57:32Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > **Red, have scum been provided with fake/cover PM’s?** No Comment. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/292 "2011-05-25T00:13:41Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Look up LOTR Mafia for an example of what can happen if the GM isn’t careful about such things. I take offense at this since that was my game. I was careful in LOTR mafia. What was gained from any mistakes by me there? Nothing I can recollect. Scum had scummy names, but also had the backup claims of Pippin, Gimli, Haldir, and Denethor. I want to know what you are referencing. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/293 "2011-05-25T00:21:48Z")
I believe there was a notorious game not here but on another site using LOTR color where a mass claim was called and because of how the roles broke down, scum were forced to claim things like “the sparrow that helped bilbo” and SC is referencing the other one. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/294 "2011-05-25T00:25:18Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I believe there was a notorious game not here but on another site using LOTR color where a mass claim was called and because of how the roles broke down, scum were forced to claim things like “the sparrow that helped bilbo” and SC is referencing the other one. Oh, my bad. I didn’t realize we’d had another LOTR mafia outside mine here. Apologies all around. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/295 "2011-05-25T00:28:52Z")
I’m not even sure it was within our circle of mafia sites. I’m not even sure it actually existed. All I know is if someone tries to make a game without some mixing of characters or fake cover roles, everyone brings up the mafia game where every good character was townie and scum had no safe cover roles. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/296 "2011-05-25T00:30:07Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > I want to hear from **Special Ed** why he voted for **Astral** after he claimed, but not before. While it looked like Ed had questions about Astral’s comments, he wasn’t suspicious enough to vote BEFORE Astral claimed, but as soon as he did, Ed voted for him. I find that weird, and scummy. So, Hirka, please expound on how what I did was weird and scummy. I mean, I questioned Astral pretty consistently. Yes, Eventually there was enough evidence for me to vote. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/297 "2011-05-25T00:31:09Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I’m not even sure it was within our circle of mafia sites. I’m not even sure it actually existed. All I know is if someone tries to make a game without some mixing of characters or fake cover roles, everyone brings up the mafia game where every good character was townie and scum had no safe cover roles. _peeks at mahaloth_ Lost ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/298 "2011-05-25T00:32:04Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > _peeks at mahaloth_ > Lost Yes, and lesson learned I should think. It was still a good game, though. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/299 "2011-05-25T00:33:20Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Yes, and lesson learned I should think. It was still a good game, though. Yes, it was. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/300 "2011-05-25T00:45:45Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Red Skeezix > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Originally Posted by Astral Rejection > > > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > > > Originally Posted by Red Skeezix > > > > Name: R. Daneel Olivaw > > > > Universe/Story: The Caves of Steel > > > > Role: Weak Cop > > > > Alignment: Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords > > > > Powers: Each night you may choose a player to investigate. You will learn whether or not that player is a member of the Associated League of Evil. > > > > Wincondition: You win when all threats to the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords have been vanquished AND at least one member of the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords are alive. > > > > > > This sounds like “regular” cop. What are the limitations? > > > > You can only determine if a player is a member of the Associated League of Evil or not. A full cop investigates a player and determines their alignment. > > That’s my discussion with Red. And no follow-up questions? I certainly would have followed up with: Is there a difference between their alignment and whether they are on the scum team? Cause that sounds like the same thing to me. Did Red really mean that a full cop investigates and determines their role? My vote remains on Astral for the moment. I don’t like the claim that his wincon was different, and the fact that he mentioned the rule change in the same post, indicating he must have had least seen the new wincon. I don’t like the confusion about which team is which. I’m not believing the role-claim. I would have asked more questions about it had I received it. And I’m unconvinced that it led to the confusion over teams. Nevertheless, I still find it hard to believe that a scum or third party would announce that their wincon was different. Why would they do that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=16)