# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/341 "2011-05-25T15:59:16Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > **Normal** : > > I’m not voting Astral or “discussing” the situation because: > > First, Players make dumb slips. Regardless of whether they’re Town or Scum. Comes about from being human. > Second, Astral’s getting enough heat from other people and I don’t want to accidentally bring down the hammer as I did in another game. I have, as you well know, enough trouble keeping track of vote counts in games I’m _running_ > Third, all of the points I might have made have already been made by players more coherent and eloquent than I. > Fourth, Although I _am_ leaning toward Astral being either Scum or Third Party at this point, Astral is hardly the _only_ Scum out there. So I’d rather look around and see who else is talking about what, which means talking about other things myself. > > Finally, I hardly think I’ve been fluffernuttering. > > Unrelatedly: Winston, why jump on Pleo but not on Ed? Is it just Pleonast’s magic baggery\*, or is it something else? > > \*To “magic bag”: Look! I’ve got a Magic Bag! But I’m not going to tell you what’s in it! To respond to your other points, yes, I’m ‘jumping’ on Pleo for the magic bagging. There’s no good reason for it, IMHO, and I can’t think of a pro-town solution to it. With regard to Ed, I didn’t interpret what he posted as a soft power role claim. I’ve had mixed results trying to read him, though, in past games. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/342 "2011-05-25T16:01:53Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. Did I miss a post from you on that? No, you didn’t. I hadn’t commented on it because it didn’t ping my radar. Now that I’ve re-read it, it still doesn’t, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/343 "2011-05-25T16:03:12Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Normal, why didn’t you include Inner Stickler in your analysis of people avoiding the issue? When this first broke, he’s talked about it, asked me questions, said how wrong it looks, and not voted for me. I don’t necessarily find him scummy for it without anything else to go on, but it seems like you shoulda mentioned it. I did, earlier, though not exactly for that reason (avoiding the vote on you, like gnarly did, not avoiding the issue entirely, like SisC). It’s a couple pages back. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/344 "2011-05-25T16:03:15Z")
> [@fubbleskag](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, claiming Town without specifying a role is the same as claiming Vanilla Town until a clarification to the claim is made. I disagree; it’s a subtle distinction but an important if one is to enforce a Lynch All Liars rule. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/345 "2011-05-25T16:06:33Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I disagree; it’s a subtle distinction but an important if one is to enforce a Lynch All Liars rule. Not familiar with LAL, but in any case my statement actually makes more sense with the word ‘vanilla’ removed anyway - we’re all implicitly claiming Town. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/346 "2011-05-25T16:10:49Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I disagree; it’s a subtle distinction but an important if one is to enforce a Lynch All Liars rule. > [@fubbleskag](#): > > Not familiar with LAL It’s just what it says on the label; if someone is caught in a lie, lynch them, unless they have a very very good reason. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/347 "2011-05-25T16:11:15Z")
A question for the experienced players: Assuming **Astral** is indeed scum, how likely is it that the rest of scum would attempt to divert our attentions to one of our own, as opposed to just writing him off as a loss and avoiding the risk of drawing attention to themselves? ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/348 "2011-05-25T16:12:15Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > It’s just what it says on the label; if someone is caught in a lie, lynch them, unless they have a very very good reason. Ah, thought it might be another game mechanic I hadn’t run into yet. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/349 "2011-05-25T16:14:07Z")
> [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > **Vote Pleonast** > > This is a really dumb thing to do, in my opinion. Why would you do this? To what end? If you’re neither scum nor vanilla, you’re either town power role or third party. If you’re a town power role, this soft claim, unprovoked, is not pro-town. Not necessarily anti-town, but certainly not in the best interest of town. So, are you third party? If not, do you care to finish this half-baked claim? I really, really would like to know what motivated you to do this. i believe **Pleo** was trying to be funny. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I think gnarlie looks a little suspicious right now. by all means, cast suspicion on me to save yourself. at least **Normal** bothered to explain her vote. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/350 "2011-05-25T16:16:08Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > **Normal** : > > I’m not voting Astral or “discussing” the situation because: > > First, Players make dumb slips. Regardless of whether they’re Town or Scum. Comes about from being human. > Second, Astral’s getting enough heat from other people and I don’t want to accidentally bring down the hammer as I did in another game. I have, as you well know, enough trouble keeping track of vote counts in games I’m _running_ > Third, all of the points I might have made have already been made by players more coherent and eloquent than I. > Fourth, Although I _am_ leaning toward Astral being either Scum or Third Party at this point, Astral is hardly the _only_ Scum out there. So I’d rather look around and see who else is talking about what, which means talking about other things myself. > > Finally, I hardly think I’ve been fluffernuttering. No, not fluff, I just have no other word for it. What you’re doing is almost worse than fluff. You’re spending a ton of time answering general questions from new players, referencing tangentially-related things from other games you’ve played, and the like, but somehow over the course of 10 or so posts, you NEVER give the slightest direct consideration to Astral. You correct Hirka’s assumption about role=power at one point, you reference (and dismiss, and dismiss the dismissal) the Jester idea at another point, but there’s not a serious poke at Astral anywhere, until now. And I continue to be bugged by this “or third party” business I keep seeing pop up (from you, Mahaloth, gnarly, maybe others). Sue me if I’m wrong, but I think his claim makes that very unlikely, and it can’t help but strike me as the kind of unnecessary covering of bases that scum sometimes do. Your first and second points are fine, your third I am questioning as being the entire explanation for the apparent disinterest until now on the matter of “is Astral scummy or not”. Finally, I don’t understand your questioning of Winston’s vote as it references Ed vs Pleo. Pleo does have the “implied power role” magic bag hanging out there. All Ed said was “I am town”. (If you mean the win condition you’ll have to explain why that should be taken as anything other than a reference to Skeezix’s change.) ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/351 "2011-05-25T16:18:36Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > i believe **Pleo** was trying to be funny. Really? I guess I don’t get the joke, then. I’ve got a pretty decent sense of humour, too. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/352 "2011-05-25T16:22:42Z")
> [@fubbleskag](#): > > A question for the experienced players: > > Assuming **Astral** is indeed scum, how likely is it that the rest of scum would attempt to divert our attentions to one of our own, as opposed to just writing him off as a loss and avoiding the risk of drawing attention to themselves? There’s no way to generalize. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/353 "2011-05-25T16:30:32Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > i believe **Pleo** was trying to be funny. No, I think he is claiming to be town with power. Pleo occasionally likes to claim early in order to…well, it’s just something he does sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/354 "2011-05-25T16:31:51Z")
I was curious why Pleo pinged Winston but Ed didn’t. Personally, having played enough with the both of them I don’t find the claims or general magic baggery of either claim to be much of anything but a null tell; they’re lying, or they’re telling the truth. Ed’s “just” Town, or he’s not. Pleo’s “not” vanilla, or he is. I don’t understand your dislike of adding “or third party.” Would you be happier with my phrasing if I said I think Astral is “not Town” and leave it at that? And I can’t help you believing or not believing me about why I haven’t bothered with Astral. I felt that base was adequately being covered, and my input on the subject is superfluous at this point as I haven’t noticed anything about his play that others haven’t mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/355 "2011-05-25T16:34:12Z")
Where did Ed ever imply “just”? ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/356 "2011-05-25T16:37:30Z")
> [@fubbleskag](#): > > A question for the experienced players: > > Assuming **Astral** is indeed scum, how likely is it that the rest of scum would attempt to divert our attentions to one of our own, as opposed to just writing him off as a loss and avoiding the risk of drawing attention to themselves? It really depends on who the scum are, their play style, and (probably most importantly) if they have daytime communication. For practical purposes I think we need to judge Astral’s claim on its own merits. I do not like the Astral lynch. Sure he claimed early, but I’m not seeing that it would be impossible for him to do that if he is being truthful. I don’t think any cop (weak or otherwise) would want to be lynched Day One. I am going to: **vote Pleonast** …because this particularly pinged me: > [@](#): > > Confirming. Finally! the streak is broken and I’m neither scum nor vanilla. It’s good to be back. This is the exact same thing that he did in the Thundercats game, where he was the Godfather. He rushed in and claimed town non-vanilla immediately (in that case, named Thundercat), and nobody questioned him on it. I realize referring to previous games is controversial but really, it’s the exact same play as before and it leapt off the page at me. I don’t see a strong reason to claim non-vanilla now unless he’s trying to set himself up to defend himself later when he garners suspicion, which is to my mind a wholly scum motivation. The only other thing I could figure is that he’s intentionally trying to get night killed for some reason if he is Town, due to some power, but considering he’s used this strategy before I think the former is more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/357 "2011-05-25T16:38:40Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > i believe **Pleo** was trying to be funny. Pleo has opened every game I’ve seen him play with a claim in his first or second post. For some reason he thinks this is good strategy. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/358 "2011-05-25T16:40:13Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Pleo has opened every game I’ve seen him play with a claim in his first or second post. For some reason he thinks this is good strategy. I’d like to hear an explanation of how this is possibly pro-Town because I just don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/359 "2011-05-25T16:42:23Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Where did Ed ever imply “just”? Ed said “I am Town.” This could be read as claiming vanilla. Or, it could be read as a simple claim of alignment. Or, it could be read as a claim of alignment with the implication of more because of its very nonspecificity. I believe I have seen several people stating each of those potential interpretations is how they read Ed’s statement. Ultimately, however, by using that “just” I was explaining _my_ thinking as to why both Ed and Pleo claiming is _to me_ a null tell. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/360 "2011-05-25T16:42:45Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > …because this particularly pinged me: > > This is the exact same thing that he did in the Thundercats game, where he was the Godfather. He rushed in and claimed town non-vanilla immediately (in that case, named Thundercat), and nobody questioned him on it. I realize referring to previous games is controversial but really, it’s the exact same play as before and it leapt off the page at me. 1. It’s not controversial to reference previous play styles when relevant. 2. Can you find his claim post in the previous game? Link to it please? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=19)