# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/381 "2011-05-25T18:34:26Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > onvously my opinion is different obviously my spelling is horrific ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/382 "2011-05-25T18:39:51Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Ed, for the love of… > > NO, not being able to find someone suspicious or build a case is NOT a scum tell. I’m so tired of this sort of statement. > > Individual players’ mileage may vary, but for me, in particular, it’s far EASIER to make a case when I’m Scum. We’ve had this conversation before but as I said then – there’s you and then there’s everybody else. I myself find playing as scum to be immensely more difficult. There’s a reason my post count tends to go way down when I’m scum, as hard as I try to behave otherwise. I don’t believe your experience can be generalized. @ Ed – if you said anything about not voting for someone you find suspicious, I missed it. I’d like to hear the whole argument. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/383 "2011-05-25T18:45:06Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Ed said “I am Town.” > > This could be read as claiming vanilla. > > Or, it could be read as a simple claim of alignment. > > Or, it could be read as a claim of alignment with the implication of more because of its very nonspecificity. > > I believe I have seen several people stating each of those potential interpretations is how they read Ed’s statement. > > Ultimately, however, by using that “just” I was explaining _my_ thinking as to why both Ed and Pleo claiming is _to me_ a null tell. I honestly can’t imagine reading it as anything other than “I am Town”. But I don’t have a problem with you characterizing them both as null tells. I do have a problem with you wanting to know why Winston treated Pleonast differently from Ed, as if there could something meaningful in the answer to that question. To me the difference between the two claims is self-evident – it’s like you’re trying to create an inconsistency where there is none. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/384 "2011-05-25T18:50:51Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > @ Ed – if you said anything about not voting for someone you find suspicious, I missed it. I’d like to hear the whole argument. We’ve had discussions in hammer games about not voting rashly and ending the Day. Didn’t we recently have a game where we had a known Scum and we were advocating not ending the Day quickly? I can look for it later. Aside from that, many people, myself included, often express suspicion without voting. I often do so because you’ll find some people will engage more when you’re discussing, and then shut down once you vote for them. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/385 "2011-05-25T19:00:13Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Nowhere do I give him a pass. I stated clearly that I think it hurts his team, no matter which team he’s on. He got himself killed as scum roleblocker indirectly because of this habit. He’s gotten himself lynched as town for it. It dominates discussion and draws an unnecessary amount of attention to himself for no gain. Apropos of nothing much but speaking as someone who just came off a game as a scum teammate of Pleo’s, I think he hurts a scum team MUCH more than he hurts a town team with this behavior. Because not only does he tend to attract votes – if he’s scum, he also forces his teammates to react to him, and that opens up the possibility for all kinds of tells that would not be there if there were no pressure on Pleo. If he’s town, probably the worst he can do is take himself out, and that’s usually not catastrophic. If he’s scum, it’s possible he might take out his whole team in the backblast. Even last game, which was a scum win, Inner and I laid it all on the line keeping Pleo out of the noose, and we really had no right to get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/386 "2011-05-25T19:04:46Z")
Meh, you did the heavy lifting. I didn’t come in until the second day and people always tend to forget about the previous day. I mostly just Didn’t Talk About or To Pleo. As far as this game goes, if Astral is scum then I’m suspicious of gnarlycharlie who looks like he’s trying to play the distancing game but if Astral is town than I don’t know. I tend to think pretty hard about who I vote for and I don’t tend to change easily. It’s a bad habit, I know. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/387 "2011-05-25T19:08:52Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > We’ve had discussions in hammer games about not voting rashly and ending the Day. > > Didn’t we recently have a game where we had a known Scum and we were advocating not ending the Day quickly? I can look for it later. > Aside from that, many people, myself included, often express suspicion without voting. I often do so because you’ll find some people will engage more when you’re discussing, and then shut down once you vote for them. Fine, but that has nothing to do with gnarlycharlie. It’s miles from the hammer threshhold (even more so at the time) and given Astral’s claim very unlikely to ever reach it. It’s hard to argue “encouraging discussion” under the circumstances, since he didn’t say he was “suspicious”. He said “probably scum or third party”. I could see an argument for keeping the vote off even at that, but he didn’t make it. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/388 "2011-05-25T19:15:51Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Fine, but that has nothing to do with gnarlycharlie. It’s miles from the hammer threshhold (even more so at the time) and given Astral’s claim very unlikely to ever reach it. It’s hard to argue “encouraging discussion” under the circumstances, since he didn’t say he was “suspicious”. He said “probably scum or third party”. > > I could see an argument for keeping the vote off even at that, but he didn’t make it. I guess it might be useful to see gnarly’s history in vting. Is he a vote early kind of guy? or is he a vote later kind of guy? ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/389 "2011-05-25T19:20:59Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Does not appropriate mean that we should lynch him? I’m not trying to put words in your mouth; I’m wondering what you mean by it(and what its implications for our game are). Ultimately, I am holding him accountable for his actions. His clarification (it was for scum, town please ignore) leaves too much to be desired. Astral, I get your point. On the flip side, Pleo keeps racking up various eccentricities and the expectation is that we’ll ignore them eventually. Screw that. You make a claim, you had better be ready to back it up. Pleo has yet to do so and yet to give any real explanation to the reason for the claim. The fact that it is his wont to do so regularly is interesting, but not an explanation in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/390 "2011-05-25T19:21:20Z")
I have no idea. I remember finding him scummy incorrectly in a game on Idlemafia, but I can’t remember why. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/391 "2011-05-25T19:27:28Z")
**Astral** , were you able to investigate during Night 0? I’m assuming your answer will be “no” or you would have already brought it up, but I’m asking because the powers in your PM says: > [@](#): > > Powers: **Each night** you may choose a player to investigate. You will learn whether or not that player is a member of the Associated League of Evil. [bolding mine] Night 0 would have technically been a night, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/392 "2011-05-25T19:38:04Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I guess it might be useful to see gnarly’s history in vting. Is he a vote early kind of guy? or is he a vote later kind of guy? I have played a few games with **gnarly** and he tends to be quiet at the beginning of day and then comes out with some very interesting observations later on. I must say that I have only seen him play as Town. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/393 "2011-05-25T20:01:32Z")
Believe it or not, I did actually ask Red if I could. [QUOTE=Red Skeezix] [QUOTE=Astral Rejection] Hey, since it’s night, can I investigate someone? Eh? Eh? 😃 [/QUOTE] Sorry, no actions night 0. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/394 "2011-05-25T20:24:03Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > However, once could make a case that our Vigilante (that is, a town player who can kill at Night, possibly with some restrictions) should get the first shot at any third parties. Lynching really is best used for scum. Therefore, I suggest we not lynch **Astral** ToDay, and instead lynch them ToMorrow, if they are still alive. > > [snip] > > This is a mostly safe claim of convenience. Normally, I would advocate lynching. However, since we can potentially get the identities of scum, I suggest keep **Astral** alive for a few Days. If they have not given us a scum by then, we should lynch them. > > I will vote for **Astral** on Day Four unless they’ve produced a scum to lynch. That’ll give them three Nights. **Pleo** , did you change your mind mid-post on when **Astral** should be lynched, or am I somehow reading it wrong? ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/395 "2011-05-25T20:51:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Sorry, no actions night 0. That seems very general. If the quote is legitimate it would seem to indicate that there were no actions at all. Any reason you didn’t share this when you posted the other PM conversation with Red? [BTW, is there an easy way to preserve nested quotes?] ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/396 "2011-05-25T21:03:17Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Believe it or not, I did actually ask Red if I could. That’s actually highly important information, knowing there were no actions on Night Zero. Why didn’t you share it straight up? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/397 "2011-05-25T21:39:27Z")
> [@nesta](#): > > That seems very general. If the quote is legitimate it would seem to indicate that there were no actions at all. > > Any reason you didn’t share this when you posted the other PM conversation with Red? > > [BTW, is there an easy way to preserve nested quotes?] No, this board is infested with ignorant users who misattributed away our ability to have nested quoting. No, I’m not bitter about this at all. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/398 "2011-05-25T22:14:50Z")
I feel like I need to get a vote down, so I was rereading the thread so far trying to look for something scummy. While I did see some things that looked suspicious, there was one thing that struck me. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > I’m not sure if I see any hints in the color that would guide us about mechanisms/setup in the game. There appears to be some kind of noose we are looking for, but if it is behind a door, I don’t see any way for that to be part of the game. > > However, worth asking. > > Is anyone in current possession of the noose? Please state clearly either way. > > I, Mahaloth, do not currently have the noose. **Mahaloth** , why the sudden interest in the noose? You got onto Astral early for misreading the win conditions and his PM, but the color in the intro clearly stated that this noose was still behind the door that we are trying to get into. Then, a couple people asked you about it. > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Mahaloth, do you have any reason to believe that there is a McGuffin (noose or anything else) in the game? I don’t see any way for it to be a part of the game, based on the color, but I’m wondering if you know otherwise and that’s why you asked. > [@MHaye](#): > > What makes you think anyone has the noose? > > The colour says that all 21 of us left without their prize; consequently it appears that no-one has it. Or at least, we have no reason to suppose anyone has it. > > So why do you think someone does? Once you started getting questions, you backed off your request a little too quickly, and you never actually answered the questions, Why were you interested? > [@Mahaloth](#): > > No, I have no idea. Just forget it. This dismissal just seemed a little too quick for me, after you were questioned. Since the goal of the game is to get this noose in the first place, it makes me wonder if you have some ulterior motive for asking the question. So, for now, I’m going to **Vote Mahaloth** At least until someone does something to get me to change my vote. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/399 "2011-05-25T22:40:23Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > I am going to: > > **vote Pleonast** > > …because this particularly pinged me: > > This is the exact same thing that he did in the Thundercats game, where he was the Godfather. He rushed in and claimed town non-vanilla immediately (in that case, named Thundercat), and nobody questioned him on it. I realize referring to previous games is controversial but really, it’s the exact same play as before and it leapt off the page at me. > > I don’t see a strong reason to claim non-vanilla now unless he’s trying to set himself up to defend himself later when he garners suspicion, which is to my mind a wholly scum motivation. The only other thing I could figure is that he’s intentionally trying to get night killed for some reason if he is Town, due to some power, but considering he’s used this strategy before I think the former is more likely. Unfortunately, he does do this every time, so I’m forced to conclude it’s a null tell–he’d do it as town, he’d do it as scum. Honestly, though, I’m a little tempted\* to vote for him if it gets him to stop doing it, because it is irritating. \*That was only a figure of speech, for the record. > [@special\_ed](#): > > I’m at a workshop > > battery running low > > note to self: scum tell? Ah, man, you were so close to a haiku. > [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Ed said “I am Town.” > > This could be read as claiming vanilla. > > Or, it could be read as a simple claim of alignment. > > Or, it could be read as a claim of alignment with the implication of more because of its very nonspecificity. > > I believe I have seen several people stating each of those potential interpretations is how they read Ed’s statement. > > Ultimately, however, by using that “just” I was explaining _my_ thinking as to why both Ed and Pleo claiming is _to me_ a null tell. This post is bugging me a lot. Ed claimed that he was town, nothing more. One could assume he was vanilla on principle, but I have a hard time believing that anyone could “read into” more information without misreading. After all, we have all implicitly claimed town, just by playing, have we not? If asked, would anyone claim non-town, unprovoked? Of course not. Thus, I am thinking that Sis Coyote is stirring the shit pot to see if it’s sticky (to use a horrific mixed metaphor). If no-one takes the bait (to mix the metaphor worsely), then the post is irrelevant, but there’s an outside chance on starting a bandwagon on Ed for doing what we all do automatically. It’s not much, but it’s enough for a first vote. **Vote: Sister Coyote** ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/400 "2011-05-25T23:25:04Z")
Oh, for the love of… Pede, Ed came out and _explicitly_ stated he was Town. most of us don’t do that this early in a game. There is a _huge_ difference, IMO, between the _implicit_ “well, of course I’m Town” coming from everybody in a game and the sort of explicit statements both Ed and Pleo have made in this game. Also, you’re taking the whole post out of context, as it was a response to the conversation Normal and I were having, which culminated in Normal’s post #356 where she asked where Ed had implied “just.” Which of course, he hadn’t, but other people (I dunno, last page? I’m kind of typing in a hurry and can’t go back and look at the moment) had said they assumed he was “vanilla” because he didn’t specify, and others said they assumed nothing of the sort. And I was explaining why I found his statement, _regardless of how he meant it_ to be a null tell. If I were trying to stick shit to Ed, I’d stick it to him, trust me. I have the ammo…somewhere around here. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=21)