# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/421 "2011-05-26T05:43:28Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Yes, but he’s not calling attention to it. _nod nod nod_ I’m sure you mean something by the _nods_… Mind explaining what? Do you know something we all should know? (not being suspicious, just want to know in case you die tonight or another night) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/422 "2011-05-26T05:56:34Z")
I mean that I want you to imagine me nodding as you read the post. That post was fluffl If I knew something everyone should know, I would say, hey everyone you should all know this. I don’t do breadcrumbs well. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/423 "2011-05-26T06:10:04Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > How is that pro-town? I appreciate the idea of encouraging townies to behave in ways you believe is beneficial, but the Socratic Dialogue questions come across as a great way to pad your post count and be involved without, y’know, actually saying anything. In other words, the same sin you’re implicitly accusing gnarly of. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/424 "2011-05-26T06:38:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Silver Jan’s rationale for instance, which I think but am not sure she wasn’t the only one to use. It’s a very weak reason to vote a claimed cop. @ Normal, it would be very strange if I had a watertight case to vote for someone on Day 1, don’t you think? I am voting for someone that has done things that make me suspicious and after reading his answer to Nestas’ question, I find it even more peculiar that he didn’t share that bit of information about his conversation with Red while defending himself. The quote was from Normal ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/425 "2011-05-26T06:41:26Z")
> [@fubbleskag](#): > > I’m going to use my super secret role power to remove all the votes against him, obviously. Maybe you just don’t know what to do, I can understand that. It just seems odd to me that you say you believe that Astral is Town cop but haven’t done much to stop him being lynched. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/426 "2011-05-26T07:52:21Z")
> [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ Normal, it would be very strange if I had a watertight case to vote for someone on Day 1, don’t you think? I am voting for someone that has done things that make me suspicious and after reading his answer to Nestas’ question, I find it even more peculiar that he didn’t share that bit of information about his conversation with Red while defending himself. > > The quote was from Normal I’ve never played in a game where night 0 (that is, night where the game hasn’t started yet) allows actions. My comment to Red was a joke. I didn’t realize other people thought there actually could be night 0 actions. I always try to joke with the moderators or explain my thoughts to them when I have a power role or a question. Anyone who’s modded a game with me could say that’s right. So, sorry I didnt share my joke with you guys until it looked like you were actually curious about it. It didn’t cross my mind that it was important. Once again - who is more likely to speak up, a town Astral or a scum Astral? I was aware, as I was posting, that somebody would jump on me for not revealing this earlier. Again, as my posted comment should indicate, I was joking and thought no knowledge had actually been gained. I could have said nothing. Of course, this is in no way asking for a pass. I just feel people are actively trying to twist everything into an indication of guilt, and forgetting to stop and ask themselves, “wait, why would scum do that?” ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/427 "2011-05-26T08:32:53Z")
I do have a question as a newbie, how often can you actually do night actions on night 0? In all the games I’ve skimmed so far, they even started with a night 0 with no actions (on either side), or started on day one. Are night zero actions common enough that it is something that is assumed, or uncommon enough that if you can actually do something it is remarkable? As a newbie, this is an honest question. I honestly don’t know how to take Astral not mentioning it. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/428 "2011-05-26T08:43:36Z")
@ Astral I am not going to give you a free pass but I will **Unvote Astral** I don’t even think that I have a very strong case against you and I would hate to mislynch the cop (even a weak one) on the first day. So now back to re-reading again! ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/429 "2011-05-26T12:01:07Z")
Let’s take a look at a few things. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Per the first post: > > Per the opening post: > > Evidence that we are, in fact, dealing with a third party or two? I’d say so. OK, the 2 different teams means there must be 2 different enemies. Astral obviously didn’t take the time to double check his own PM > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Oops, forgot to add @Special Ed. > > I believe your win condition differs because Red, at the time he composed his first post, forgot about the double hammer thing. He already amended one of the rules, and adjusted something else, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see him post a new, updated sample PM. > > For the record, though, my PM is also different from the posted one. Asral’s win condition being different has to do with the hammers. (not, he didn’t mention 3rd party) > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I’m guessing this is directed at me. Red has intimated that the color can provide hints about the game state. Since he’s now used two different ways to describe the opposing force, I’d guess that there’s a scum team that can communicate, plus a 3rd party or two that can not communicate, and together they form the “Associated League of Evil.” the ALE are a group of non-communicating 3rd parties (Note, the ALE is mentioned specifically in Astral’s PM) > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I may have mentioned this before, but I’m getting my masters and Mondays are my night class. We get five minute breaks every once in a while, so I’m reading along on my phone when I get a chance. So, not staying mum, just no time to really compose a response. > > To answer some questions: > > 1. I thought I had caught an important game detail from the wording of the team names. I didn’t remember that the slumlords were the good guys, because I glossed over that. The teams (to me) are town and scum. I didn’t remember the details, and in the posted vanilla PM the win condition mentioned beating the slumlords, and off I went to post my “find.” > > 2. I did not “claim not town” as somebody said. I said my win condition didn’t match the originally posted win-con, just like Ed did. I did miss that Red had posted an amended PM. My problem today is that I had to work, immediately followed by class. Reading along on the phone led to me missing details. > > Back to class. If you have further concerns, I’ll check back in next break. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/430 "2011-05-26T12:02:39Z")
crap got to leave for work. More later. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/431 "2011-05-26T13:30:13Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Now that I’m sitting in front of my computer, I finally understand the confusion about my comments. > > When I first read the sample PM on my phone, the way the words were presented made me skip over the part that says “threats to the.” When I glanced at it, I saw “You win when all Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwellers have been vanquished.” I looked again when I was writing my earlier defense post, and still skipped over the pertinent words. Now, on an actual screen, I see my mistake. > > At first, I couldn’t understand everybody’s confusion. I might have had the teams wrong, but the opening post had them wrong too! It’s much easier to flit back to the first post of the thread than check my messages on my phone, so I was using that (flawed) name for reference. And from that comes all my misunderstandings. > > Given that, only one case against me seems off: > > Do you honestly believe scum are more likely to be confused about which team they’re on? Given that scum presumably have longer PMs, with links to their secret board, which is likely named for their organization, and so on? Or is it more likely that a townie glanced at his PM to see alignment and if he had any cool powers, and then headed back to the boards? Which is _really_ more likely? > > It’s fine that you voted for me, since my mistake was pretty egregious. I just disagree with your stated reasoning. Here is where Astral makes his defense. He’s basically stating that he misread the sample PM, didn’t check his own, and had forgotten that when he read his own PM that he was a Raftdwelling Slumlord. This is the part that I’m struggling with. My PM clearly stated that I was a raftdwelling slumlord. Nowhere did it say “Town” I actually had to go check to be sure that I was Town. I admit that I was confused. Later, Astral admits that he was confused, yet the Raftdweeling Slumlord part doesn’t stick out in his head. I’m struggling to believe that. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/432 "2011-05-26T13:33:08Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Yes, I noticed yesterday which team I was on. (It’s the good guys, I promise!) > > And then I forgot which name went with which faction today. When I went back to the original post, I misread the sample PM and thought the Alliance were the bad guys. Here, in his defense Astral states that he forgot which name applied to which group. This is where my suspicion was really piqued. Now, however, I can see how Astral’s defense is plausible. The first mention of the Associate League of Evil was in the opeing Day 1 post. That was the first mention for me. Astral’s posted Role PM, however, mentions them. Now his forgetting is plausible. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/433 "2011-05-26T13:44:19Z")
In post 234, Astral posts his role PM. It clearly states that he can find ALE. He claims to have asked Red why he was a weak Cop. Red replies that he cannot determine alignment, but if they are ALE. Did Astral at this point think he could find 3rd party and not Scum? In post 272, Astral replies to pedescribe and states that he’s already posted his communication. In post 302, Astral states that he wouldn;'t ask Red questions that he isn’t likely to answer in reply to TexCat questioning him on why he didn’t ask a follow question like\> Are the ALE the Scum team? or something. Then in post 393, Astral indicates that he did ask Red about actuions in Night 0. ```auto When taken in total, the delay in posting his Role PM, the failure to post other communications until pressed, and the calim of weak detective, when coupled with his confusion over the Raftdweeling Slumlords has me still quite suspicious of him. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/434 "2011-05-26T14:05:02Z")
Between when Astral said he’s our detective to when he actually posts his PM is a matter of minutes, like one or two. Wasn’t much of a delay. I can see it taking that long to open his PM box and quoting, and then posting. I can also believe his not seeing the team name, he sees his role, gets excited about being the cop, and just assumes that means town, without actually looking at alignment. First thing I did when I opened my PM was check my role, I would have been excited if I was a cop too. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/435 "2011-05-26T14:21:53Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Between when Astral said he’s our detective to when he actually posts his PM is a matter of minutes, like one or two. Wasn’t much of a delay. I can see it taking that long to open his PM box and quoting, and then posting. I can also believe his not seeing the team name, he sees his role, gets excited about being the cop, and just assumes that means town, without actually looking at alignment. First thing I did when I opened my PM was check my role, I would have been excited if I was a cop too. it’s not how much time between the claim and the PM that’s important. it’s how long between he was being pressured and making a claim. i’ll check that. i’m trying to remember if i saw a game where scum claimed weak cop. it seems vaguely familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/436 "2011-05-26T14:24:20Z")
My own biggest reason for continued suspicion is something Ed didn’t even highlight at the end there: the discrepancy between remembering enough of his win condition (length, he says) to agree with Ed’s comment about it, while simultaneously forgetting everything to do with who the bad guys and the good guys are. Everything else fits together more or less plausibly; that one’s a real head-scratcher for me. I do think it is possible that Astral simply, as Ed speculated earlier, decided to grab some town cred from agreeing with Ed rapidly on that one. I’m just nowhere near certain enough to stake the life of a claimed cop on that, especially given the off-kilter reactions some people have had _to_ Astral. There are some minor points I would quibble with Ed on as regards his summary (for instance, I believe Astral’s claim is that he interpreted CARS-scum plus the odd third party together as the Alliance of Evil, not that third parties alone are the Alliance), but I don’t have time to address each point on its own. For the most part I agree with it. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/437 "2011-05-26T15:04:33Z")
Forgive the intrusion, but is there a ‘Forbuidden Thread’ for this game for those of us playing along at home? I can’t seem to find one. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/438 "2011-05-26T15:05:19Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > My own biggest reason for continued suspicion is something Ed didn’t even highlight at the end there: the discrepancy between remembering enough of his win condition (length, he says) to agree with Ed’s comment about it, while simultaneously forgetting everything to do with who the bad guys and the good guys are. Everything else fits together more or less plausibly; that one’s a real head-scratcher for me. I do think it is possible that Astral simply, as Ed speculated earlier, decided to grab some town cred from agreeing with Ed rapidly on that one. I’m just nowhere near certain enough to stake the life of a claimed cop on that, especially given the off-kilter reactions some people have had _to_ Astral. That’s a good point. He knew his PM didn’t match the published one, but he didn’t notice it enough to see that he needed to eliminate the threats to the team that was his own alignment. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/439 "2011-05-26T15:38:18Z")
Yes, Ed, I thought you were claiming Town. Which you were. I also figured you were trying to handshake, but didn’t feel that needed comment as others had rather eloquently put the kibosh on that. I realize that my tendency to not comment on things I don’t feel need commenting on is getting me in trouble this game, but what’re you gonna do? I also don’t understand why I’m getting nailed to the wall for not Scum hunting when I’m doing the same thing everyone else is – reading, and commenting on those things that intrigue me. I don’t have a case to make on anyone at this point – not even Astral – so I’m not making a case and not putting down a vote. This is how I play. Read, synthesize, ask, read, eventually make a crappy case and stick with it. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/440 "2011-05-26T15:52:55Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > seriously? don’t people try to poke holes into other players’ arguments all the time? besides, i did that in our Royal Rumble game in Giraffe to great success and i was the Town Watcher there. Uh, I thought they meant “poke people” just to get a reaction, not poke holes in other people’s arguments. Am I wrong? > [@special\_ed](#): > > Seriously? > Isn’t that exactly what you are doing? No. 😕 > [@Zeriel](#): > > I appreciate the idea of encouraging townies to behave in ways you believe is beneficial, but the Socratic Dialogue questions come across as a great way to pad your post count and be involved without, y’know, actually saying anything. > > In other words, the same sin you’re implicitly accusing gnarly of. 😃 I disagree that that is what I’ve been doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=23)