# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/581 "2011-05-28T17:59:40Z")
Something is not quite right about\*\* gnarlycharlie’s\*\* posts. I don’t really know what it is but he voted for **Astral** when he was dared to and then hasn’t really said much more. **Vote Gnarlycharlie** I could be wrong about my vote but… He hasn’t really said anything about anyone else, except when he mentions that **Astral** and\*\* Mahaloth\*\* could be friends He seems more interested in arguing with **Astral**. As I said, I could be wrong but it just feels funny to me. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/582 "2011-05-28T17:59:56Z")
So, just plowed through the thread & picked up a few things to comment on: > [@Pleonast](#): > > Interesting. Why should we expect a counter claim? A complete alignment investigator would not counter-claim you, because it’s a different role. I disagree; if another player pops up with a relatively unlimited alignment-investigation role, I will assume that either he/she or Astral are lying, unless we get some indication that the Scum team is correspondingly over-loaded with power roles. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > So, what do I get from that? First, **Zeriel** ’s question has been answered, power roles do have a link between their powers and their name. Second, looks like Red did a good job finding good characters (even if I don’t know any of them it seems!) for his roles. Third, **Astral** is most likely telling the truth. If he just changed his alignment from scum to CARS he would probably have forgotten to change the name to a good guy as well (assuming cover roles were not given by Red, still waiting on the answer to that question). Fourth, since the character in question was a good guy, but couldn’t be distinguished from a human except under close scrutiny, it is still possible **Astral** might be some sort of 3rd party, but I still believe he is Pro-Town. I would caution against reading too much into the character name. The moderator will certainly have put in place a mechanism to allow the Scum to avoid being caught out by a simple mass claim of character names. My guess, based on the opening color, is that either everyone on both sides has a “heroic” name from genre fiction, or that there is a mix of good and evil on both sides. (The basis here is that we got zapped by magic glowy lights only after being turned back from the door; my theory is that the magic glowy lights turned us into heroes from genre fiction.) It’s also possible that if the Scum team all has villain names, the mod has provided them with a safe set of names & universes to draw on for fake claims. > [@Zeriel](#): > > That’s actually highly important information, knowing there were no actions on Night Zero. Why didn’t you share it straight up? This strikes me as silly; if action was possible on Night Zero, I would have expected a public announcement. (Much like if multiple votes were allowed.) > [@special\_ed](#): > > To answer this, yes a weak Cop claim might not provoke a counter claim by the real Cop while making it easier for Astral to slide by. > > As for the investigation results not really being weak Cop, remember if Astral is Scum, he was hamstrung by his claim of misreading his PM. > [@special\_ed](#): > > a weak cop claim still makes sense. Maybe it IS a power he has as a 3rd party. Also, it helps him avoid conflict with a real Cop counter claiming. Again, I disagree; multiple cops, each of whom could investigate once a night and tell Scum from not-Scum, would be incredibly powerful. If another Cop appears on the scene, I for one will assume one of the two is lying. As I said before, I would expect a fake-claiming Scum to have either gone full Cop or come up with a more serious weakness, and a fake-claiming third party to have come up with a different claim altogether. I find a third-party investigator pretty implausible on the face of it; IMO Occam’s razor cuts in the direction of Astral making an epic brain-fart. And if he is a third-party survivor investigator, I totally want him investigating scum anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/583 "2011-05-28T18:01:28Z")
Oh, and at the moment, the thing that stands out for me as scummy is **fubbleskag’s** reversal from “I believe Astral” to voting for him once something mechanical came to light. **vote fubbleskag** ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/584 "2011-05-28T18:04:14Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > The absence of a counter-claim surely implies something, right? A one-for-one trade is a great deal for town. I guess you could argue they’re hanging low in case I die regardless, but it still makes no sense to kill your cop on Day 1 In fact, I would expect a standard cop to not counter-claim; it can always wait for Day 2 or 3, with bonus investigation results. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/585 "2011-05-28T18:35:38Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > As I said before, I would expect a fake-claiming Scum to have either gone full Cop or come up with a more serious weakness, and a fake-claiming third party to have come up with a different claim altogether. Thinking about it in the shower, I realized that a full Cop claim wouldn’t have given scum-Astral an explanation of why he suspected the presence of third parties in the first place, so I’ll withdraw that part of my argument. I still think the balance of evidence is that Astral is Town, and that there’s certainly enough doubt that we shouldn’t risk lynching the Cop on Day 1. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/586 "2011-05-28T19:05:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Correction to the correction: there were five at the time Astral claimed, as Stanislaus had unvoted. I think I missed that unvote when I manually counted. Either way, my point is not harmed by there being LESS votes on him than I said, considering my point was that he claimed unforced and prematurely. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/587 "2011-05-28T19:08:23Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > In fact, I would expect a standard cop to not counter-claim; it can always wait for Day 2 or 3, with bonus investigation results. Certainly in a closed game, you wouldn’t expect a counterclaim until Day Two–no sense in painting a target on their ass for scum before they can have had any investigation results. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/588 "2011-05-28T19:10:17Z")
In general, I want to make the point that there are a LOT of unwarranted assumptions regarding potential roles in the game in this thread. Closed games can certainly be standard, but they can just as easily be wildly non-standard (that’s actually been the case for me more often than not, playing on IdleMafia and other places than here). Poor assumptions regarding whether we have cops, doctors, or whatever else are a good way for town to screw themselves over by planning for the appearance of power roles that may well not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/589 "2011-05-28T19:46:21Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Also, **Stanislaus**? I have 32 posts in this thread (6th most). You have 8 (3rd lowest of players). Pot calling the kettle black much, regarding low but nonexistent posting? I have very few posts, owing to spotty internet access and demands of work. (Both issues which are resolving.) You have been able to post, but have focused much more on theorising about Night 0, for example, than on actually hunting scum. That’s the zone Scum do well in here. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/590 "2011-05-28T20:22:24Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I think I missed that unvote when I manually counted. Either way, my point is not harmed by there being LESS votes on him than I said, considering my point was that he claimed unforced and prematurely. 😛 Well, you said 4, there were actually 5, and MHaye said 6. Math is hard. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/591 "2011-05-28T20:43:23Z")
> [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Something is not quite right about\*\* gnarlycharlie’s\*\* posts. I don’t really know what it is but he voted for **Astral** when he was dared to and then hasn’t really said much more. > > **Vote Gnarlycharlie** > > I could be wrong about my vote but… > > He hasn’t really said anything about anyone else, except when he mentions that **Astral** and\*\* Mahaloth\*\* could be friends He seems more interested in arguing with **Astral**. As I said, I could be wrong but it just feels funny to me. Bah, I say Bah! ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/592 "2011-05-28T20:45:11Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > This strikes me as silly; if action was possible on Night Zero, I would have expected a public announcement. (Much like if multiple votes were allowed.) Didn’t Castle of Crossed Destinies on Idle start off with at least a Night 0 kill if not other actions? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/593 "2011-05-28T20:47:04Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I find a third-party investigator pretty implausible on the face of it; IMO Occam’s razor cuts in the direction of Astral making an epic brain-fart. And if he is a third-party survivor investigator, I totally want him investigating scum anyway. What about a 3rd party who has an investigative power making them useful to Town? Or maybe they must find a specific person. Or maybe something else? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/594 "2011-05-28T21:39:16Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I have very few posts, owing to spotty internet access and demands of work. (Both issues which are resolving.) You have been able to post, but have focused much more on theorising about Night 0, for example, than on actually hunting scum. That’s the zone Scum do well in here. How many closed games have you played in? In a closed game, with as many assumptions that are flying around here, a reality check on how little we actually \*\*know \*\*is vital to keep us from making false conclusions that could potentially allow scum to hide in plain sight. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/595 "2011-05-28T22:47:25Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > 3a - His claim itself doesn’t make sense as a Scum claim. Why Weak Cop and not just Cop? Sure, there’s the off chance you’ll “investigate” as Town a third-party who subsequently flips, but this is strictly a tactic to buy a mislynch or two and/or force the real Cop into the open, and what are the odds that you will both pick a Third Party AND have that Third Party flip in that time? > > 3b - Likewise, if his intent was to claim a Weak Cop so as to avoid a counterclaim from the real Cop, his claim was not nearly weak enough; no real Cop is going to buy there being 2 cops in the game who can both investigate scum. Why not go for something like a back-up Cop, who only gets to investigate when Cop #1 goes down? It even fits thematically with R. Daneel, who after all didn’t get his telepathetic powers until book 4 of the series. While I believe that the case on Astral is really weak, this section of your counterargument is dangerously weak as well. You are arguing from “scum would not do that territory”, which assumes that scum are rational and logical, and that you are more so. All it takes is a single line of reason you haven’t seen, or an irrational action, and you’ve outlogiced yourself. For example: I can think of a reason scum!Astral would claim such. He wanted to claim cop so as to not get lynched, but he didn’t want to claim ‘cop’ in fear of counterclaim. So he claimed ‘weak cop’ with the power of cop, and hoped it would work out. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Unprovoked? Really? You thought I would just naturally lose voters as the day went on WITHOUT a claim? When two players were already demanding one? It’s Day 1, in which shoddily-made cases are built and destroyed by the dozens. There was a good deal of time in the Day when you claimed. It was quite likely that votes would have drifted off of you. For the record. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You said in your first post discussing me that “we can opt to look elsewhere, but where?” When asked why you haven’t voted me, you respond “it’s still early in the Day. something may yet happen but if you want me to, i’ll oblige.” When you finally vote for me, you say “i will still see if anything else comes up and see if anything changes my mind.” When talking with Mahaloth about your strategy, you say “i observe, poke here and there and try to get reactions. then i vote.” That is a pretty compelling case, I have to say. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/596 "2011-05-28T23:02:03Z")
[quote=“special\_ed, post:591, topic:582387”] > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Something is not quite right about\*\* gnarlycharlie’s\*\* posts. I don’t really know what it is but he voted for **Astral** when he was dared to and then hasn’t really said much more. > > **Vote Gnarlycharlie** > > I could be wrong about my vote but… > > He hasn’t really said anything about anyone else, except when he mentions that **Astral** and\*\* Mahaloth\*\* could be friends He seems more interested in arguing with **Astral**. As I said, I could be wrong but it just feels funny to me. > [@special\_ed](#): > > Bah, I say > > Bah! Bah? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/597 "2011-05-28T23:14:49Z")
[quote=“Weedy, post:596, topic:582387”] > [@special\_ed](#): > > Bah? Yes, the post made me go Bah. Let me paraphrase it Janet: 1. Gnarly isn’t quote right 2. I don’t know what gnarly is 3. Gnarly voted for Astral 4. Votes for gnarly 5. I might be wrong 6. It all feels funny to me ```auto It just struck me as possibly a Scum hemming and hawing. ``` ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/598 "2011-05-28T23:53:32Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Correction to the correction: there were five at the time Astral claimed, as Stanislaus had unvoted. True, but five is still greater than four. That being said, I probably wouldn’t have made the comment had I caught that Stanisalus had unvoted before the claim. (I misread my vote tracking spreadsheet.) On Astral (again) - either Astral really has his role, in which case he could be Town or third party, or he doesn’t, in which case he’s an ALE drinker. I don’t think third party is likely, since his role can (as claimed) discern ALE from non-ALE, and the ALE are the team likely to have the tool to summarily dispose of him. I think Pleo’s method is the best here, although I think I prefer to leave the lynch another Day. That will give Astral four results. If his results are all Town, when we lynch him we’ll suddenly have a list of four players all of whom were vouched for by a known Townie, thus reducing the unknown pool hugely. The ALE drinkers will then have to consider offing the investigated rather than search for the Doc, the full cop or whatever other roles Townies have. Also, I can see how Astral can be a “weak cop.” All he can do, as claimed, is tell ALE from not-ALE. A full cop generally gets exact alignment (so can tell third parties from ALE) _and_ role. Astral’s role is by no means as versatile as a full cop’s and therefore fully deserving of the word “weak.” ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/599 "2011-05-29T00:43:08Z")
So, if not Astral then who? I do not like Pleo’s bull-in-a-china-shop approach of claiming early and unprovoked. However, I also note that he’s rather made a rod for his back over this; he failed to claim in one of the ten games and got lynched for _not_ claiming. He was Mafia that game, iirc. So he probably feels he has to claim every time. The only way to break him of it would be to adopt a policy of lynching him for doing this. Getting an opinionated group like this to move in one direction has many things in common with trying to herd cats. So, for now, I think we’re stuck with it. There’s another problem with all the votes piling up on Pleo. He won’t be back to defend himself against them until after Dusk. (It’s a long-standing pattern of play, which holds even if he’s modding.) He’s mentioned that the holiday will delay his return to the game. This effectively means that he won’t now be claiming if he moves into the vote lead. I’d rather give him a chance to defend himself. As an aside; it appears the last vote you place is the one that counts, even if you fail to unvote first. Post [post=13853084]554[/post] records the voting shenanigans of Hirka and Pleo, both of whom were held to have rescinded an existing vote to place another – Pleo shifting from Sister C to fubbleskag, and Hirka from Sister C to Pleo, then Pleo to Pleo three times. I found nesta’s case against fubbleskag outlined in post [post=13849268]523[/post] to be fairly persuasive. Fubbleskag jumped onto the excuse to vote Astral hard. Also, just as an aside, I raised my eyebrows at the way Ed presented the information. He just cut & pasted the two claimed PMs into one and left everyone to discover the differences. It took me a while. Just hinting like that was something |I found a bit suspicious. If you’re going to make an accusation, spell it out so the accused can defend themselves. The other case that might bear closer inspection is stanislaus’s case against Zeriel in post [post=13853643]560[/post]. If Zeriel is as convinced as he claimed to be that Astral is third party (which is, imo, the _least_ likely alignment for him, based on his claimed role) then by his own analysis he should be looking for an ALE drinker – but he’s voting for Astral. I find the switch by fubbleskag more suspicious, but it may be a relatively new player jumping to conclusions. I’m going to sleep on it before voting. It being nearly 2am here, I think I’ve reached the end of my rope. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/600 "2011-05-29T01:11:27Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Let’s make it interesting then. > > **Unvote** > **Vote gnarlycharlie** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Something is not quite right about\*\* gnarlycharlie’s\*\* posts. I don’t really know what it is but he voted for **Astral** when he was dared to and then hasn’t really said much more. > > **Vote Gnarlycharlie** > > I could be wrong about my vote but… > > He hasn’t really said anything about anyone else, except when he mentions that **Astral** and\*\* Mahaloth\*\* could be friends He seems more interested in arguing with **Astral**. As I said, I could be wrong but it just feels funny to me. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > I definitely don’t like it, but I dislike his change of story even more. He clearly tried to pull a fast one by changing “poking people for reactions” to “poking holes in peoples’ arguments”. > > After Astral, gnarly clearly leads my suspect pool. hmmm, seems to be a push for me to be lynched D2, assuming it’s not D1. no matter, if i get lynched, they will likely get suspected. i have replied to **Astral** and **Mahaloth** in previous posts so i’ll address **Silver Jan**. **Jan** , you were asking me to comment and i replied asking to what specifically. then you reply with a vote for me. why ask if you were going to vote for me anyway? perhaps you’re comparing my play now to our previous games too much. it also could mean you’re scum. 😉 that said, since i didn’t see a going away thread, i’ll post here. my family and i are moving houses this week. we’re starting to pack now so i’ll be in and out, mostly out, for the next 5 days. of course this will be academic if i get lynched or NKd. 😃 also, my time zone is GMT+8, exactly opposite EDT. i do try to stay up when everyone else is but i can’t always do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=31)