# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/621 "2011-05-30T02:38:24Z")
Astral Rejection(7): [del]Tom Scud[136-236][/del], [del]Stanislaus[139-211][/del], TexCat[141], Mahaloth[154], Zeriel[160], [del]Normal Phase[207-237][/del], [del]Special Ed[245-507][/del], gnarlycharlie[324], [del]Silver Jan[327-428][/del], SisterCoyote[466], fubbleskag[490], Inner Stickler[492] Pleonast(5): Winston Smith[328], fluiddruid[356], Hirka T’Bawa[del][536-536][536-536][536-536][/del][536], Normal Phase[540], pedescribe[546] fubbleskag(4): nesta[523], Pleonast[530], Tom Scud[583], Special Ed[603] SisterCoyote(1): [del]Normal Phase[317-318][/del], [del]pedescribe[399-545][/del], Weedy[407], [del]Hirka T’Bawa[414-536][/del], [del]Astral Rejection[451-569][/del], [del]Pleonast[487-530][/del] gnarlycharlie(1): [del]Normal Phase[318-540][/del], Astral Rejection[569], [del]Silver Jan[581-615][/del] Zeriel(1): Stanislaus[560] Special Ed(0): [del]Astral Rejection[248-451][/del] Mahaloth(0): [del]Hirka T’Bawa[398-414][/del] Did Not Vote:Silver Jan, MHaye With these votes Astral Rejection would be lynched. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/622 "2011-05-30T03:04:48Z")
Looks like I’m still the lynch leader. That’s a shame. At least there was plenty of conversation toDay… hopefully folks get some good leads from all the voting and unvoting what’s been happening. If town ends up winning, I want all the credit for my brilliant ploy to unwittingly forget the name of my team and thus set in motion the drawing out of all of our scum adversaries. If town ends up losing, it’s a time for quiet introspection and forgetting the part I played. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/623 "2011-05-30T03:09:48Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > \*\* > Day 1 will be extended due to the Memorial Day Holiday in the US. It will end Monday, May 30th at 6:59 PM. > > The hammer threshold for Day 1 is 13.\*\* **I seem to remember this was EDT, is that correct?** ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/624 "2011-05-30T06:04:07Z")
**Vote fubbleskag** For still keeping his vote on Astral after initially defending him. I do think Astral has done a really good job of defending himself, I just hope it’s all true. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/625 "2011-05-30T06:44:47Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Can you maybe rewrite that as an actual sentence? Or three? Sorry, I have about as much idea as you have :smack: Apparently my brain wasn’t working last night. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/626 "2011-05-30T10:23:10Z")
**vote fubbleskag** for the reasons nesta gave, basically. For claiming to believe Astral, but not hunting scum, and ditching the Astral defense when it got inconvenient. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/627 "2011-05-30T14:18:45Z")
I’ve just reread Stanislaus’s case against Zeriel, complete with a review of the linked posts. I tend to agree with Stanisalus’s summary. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > Going through that, it at first seemed that my initial impression was wrong. Although there has been a fair amount of discussion about generic game theory, and responding to new players’ questions, Zeriel has been pretty focused on challenging Astral. > > However, this is not scum hunting. Zeriel explicitly says that he thinks Astral is a third-party survivor. So not ALE, and not an immediate threat to Town. Zeriel himself says as much: > > > [@Zeriel](#): > > > > Nabbing a PFK is somewhat good but not nearly as good as nabbing a scum. > > > > Take the traditional PFK, the serial killer: since they have to kill everyone, killing scum is just as beneficial as killing town for them. > > > > Nabbing a non-exclusive-win third party is beneficial, or not, depending on how that third party has been acting and what their powers are. On the other hand, killing them if they’re playing in support of town is not as bad as killing a real townie because they typically don’t count towards town’s majority in games I’ve played in. > > > > Take the traditional 3rd-Party, the survivor: since they have no powers except voting, and are going to be trying to blend in with town (and thus voting like town), killing them is somewhat bad but not as bad as killing a real townie. > > It’s very difficult to reconcile this post with Zeriel’s pursuit of what he believes is a third-party survivor and failure to look anywhere else for scum. I’m inclined to think that Zeriel is Scum who thinks he has found a safe “pro-Town” vote that won’t draw much attention. > **vote Zeriel** My main issue with Zeriel’s case is that there is no way AR’s claimed power was given to a third party. It can only hurt the ALE drinkers, thus giving them all the incentive they need to kill AR. Powers given to third party players (as distinct from those playing for keeps) should have the aim of keeping them alive. This does exactly the opposite. Worse, if the ALE drinkers have an unstoppable kill, AR is dead come Dawn, even if the Doc protects him. (We can’t, at this stage, rule that possibility out.) Vote Zeriel\*\* I’m going to review fubbleskag, as it might be worth shifting my vote if it will open up the possibility of saving R and giving him some rope to play with. That will come a bit later though. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/628 "2011-05-30T14:32:25Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > **I seem to remember this was EDT, is that correct?** **Correct** ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/629 "2011-05-30T14:35:47Z")
Astral Rejection(7): [del]Tom Scud[136-236][/del], [del]Stanislaus[139-211][/del], TexCat[141], Mahaloth[154], Zeriel[160], [del]Normal Phase[207-237][/del], [del]Special Ed[245-507][/del], gnarlycharlie[324], [del]Silver Jan[327-428][/del], SisterCoyote[466], fubbleskag[490], Inner Stickler[492] fubbleskag(6): nesta[523], Pleonast[530], Tom Scud[583], Special Ed[603], Silver Jan[623], Weedy[626] Pleonast(5): Winston Smith[328], fluiddruid[356], Hirka T’Bawa[del][536-536][536-536][536-536][/del][536], Normal Phase[540], pedescribe[546] Zeriel(2): Stanislaus[560], MHaye[627] gnarlycharlie(1): [del]Normal Phase[318-540][/del], Astral Rejection[569], [del]Silver Jan[581-615][/del] Special Ed(0): [del]Astral Rejection[248-451][/del] SisterCoyote(0): [del]Normal Phase[317-318][/del], [del]pedescribe[399-545][/del], [del]Weedy[407-626][/del], [del]Hirka T’Bawa[414-536][/del], [del]Astral Rejection[451-569][/del], [del]Pleonast[487-530][/del] Mahaloth(0): [del]Hirka T’Bawa[398-414][/del] Did Not Vote: With these votes Astral Rejection will be lynched. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/630 "2011-05-30T14:52:10Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > **Correct** \*\* In addition, the Day ends precisely at 7:00 pm. It should be considered by all players that the person with the most votes has died precisely at 7:00 pm. The lynched player should refrain from making any posts (fluff, strategy, or otherwise) until I have posted the Night post. In the case of a tie, any tied players should also refrain from posting until I have posted the results of the tie breaker.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/631 "2011-05-30T15:44:27Z")
I think \*\*MHaye \*\*and \*\*Stanislaus \*\*are misreading the purpose of my discussion of what **Astral** ’s role/powers might be in the context of third-parties. The “confusion” over which team he is on is the primary driver of my vote for him. At best, that means he’s not paying enough attention to the game if he can’t even get his faction name right. The secondary driver of my vote for him is that he made dangerously presumptuous statements about what a lack of counter-claim to his own would mean. (that is, trying in the absence of evidence to convince us that there MUST be a cop in this game, and if they don’t show up he must be it, is dangerous in the extreme in a closed game.) The tertiary driver of my vote for him is the fact that his claim came out early in the day when he was in no real danger. Yes, he was the early vote leader on day one. So what? Essentially he’s evidenced a panoply of behaviors that are not in the best interests of town, and his reasoning for why we should let him live anyway is spurious. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/632 "2011-05-30T15:46:05Z")
NETA: The side discussion as to whether he is a third-party or not is, in my mind, more to demonstrate that we have had previous games where we had odd mixes of powers (such as third-party investigator). ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/633 "2011-05-30T16:00:14Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > At best, that means he’s not paying enough attention to the game if he can’t even get his faction name. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/634 "2011-05-30T16:52:38Z")
> [@fubbleskag](#): > > The PMs were a good excuse to change my view, they’re quite frankly damning evidence in my opinion. If Town decides not to lynch **Astral** as a strategic move, I’m more than happy to unvote - but so far I haven’t heard any serious talk about that. The PMs did look quite damning for a moment. But then Normal Phase claimed her PM was in the same order as Astral’s. And then our moderator stepped in: > [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > I will not vouch for the contents of any players PM except to note this: > > No where in the rules for this game does it state that all elements of a PM will be in the same order for each individual PM. Nor does it say that amongst team members all of the win conditions will be worded the same. Nor does it say that all PMs will contain exactly the same elements in number or meaning. I do my best to confound handshakers whenever possible :D. > > Also, No Posting Screenshots from any players, period. > > Justification: I feel that brings an element to the game which is outside the spirit of the game. So I can see the PMs as a momentary excuse to vote Astral, but I can hardly see them as a reason for your vote to remain there. Do you still see them as damning evidence, **fubbleskag**?? ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/635 "2011-05-30T17:14:17Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > Hirka T’Bawa[del][536-536][536-536][536-536][/del][536], Well, at least we know what Red Skeezix does with multi-votes 🙂 I’m gone over the weekend, and there is a lot of talk and vote movement. I still believe **Astral** is telling the truth, none of the arguments made against him has changed my belief that he just made a simple mistake, and I really don’t want to lynch the cop on day one. While I’m not 100% sold on the fubbleskag lynch, I do believe it is a better case then the one on **Astral** , and he’s the 2nd highest vote leader. So lets make a tie… Astral, I’ve been on your side from the beginning, you better be telling the truth, or people will end up lynching me just since I protected you! **Unvote Pleonast** **Vote fubbleskag** ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/636 "2011-05-30T17:23:20Z")
let’s make it not a tie **unvote Astral** ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/637 "2011-05-30T17:29:43Z")
> [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Vote fubbleskag > > For still keeping his vote on Astral after initially defending him. I do think Astral has done a really good job of defending himself, I just hope it’s all true. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > While I’m not 100% sold on the fubbleskag lynch, I do believe it is a better case then the one on **Astral** , and he’s the 2nd highest vote leader. So lets make a tie… > > Unvote Pleonast > > Vote fubbleskag for the record, I think both of these last minute pile-on votes are suspicious and should be looked into further when I’m proven to be Town ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/638 "2011-05-30T17:35:36Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > NETA: The side discussion as to \*\*whether he is a third-party or not \*\*is, in my mind, more to demonstrate that we have had previous games where we had odd mixes of powers (such as third-party investigator). > [@Zeriel](#): > > Heh, that’s why _I_ think you’re likely to be 3rd-party survivor and angling to get the doc helping you out. > [@Zeriel](#): > > It’s a shame you have such an important role and yet you chose to screw up your postings in exactly the same way as an inattentive third-party player would have done. > [@Zeriel](#): > > My thought is that you’re a third-party, based on your utter confusion regarding all the faction names. You know that there are third parties (being one) so you’re trying to prove your value to town by dropping that tidbit. “Weak scum-only detective” is a very useful power for a 3rd-party to have, and would theoretically keep you alive for a fair bit of the game until/unless it could be proven that you were a PFK. You’re not discussing “whether or not” he’s a third party and comparing this situation to other games. Your whole case against him is that he revealed himself to be third party. By your own lights, you should have been looking for a scum lynch, rather than spending so many of your posts gunning after a second-tier target. Now you’re spinning your previous posts to “really mean” something that they manifestly don’t. I’m happy with my vote. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/639 "2011-05-30T17:37:24Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > The PMs did look quite damning for a moment. But then Normal Phase claimed her PM was in the same order as Astral’s. And then our moderator stepped in: > > So I can see the PMs as a momentary excuse to vote Astral, but I can hardly see them as a reason for your vote to remain there. Do you still see them as damning evidence, **fubbleskag**?? I’m not willing to take the moderator’s post as evidence one way or the other, and it’s just as possible that **Normal Phase** is also scum. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/640 "2011-05-30T17:39:09Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > :rolleyes: An amazingly articulate rebuttal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=33)