# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/761 "2011-06-02T15:51:35Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Then we disagree. I think poking people then stepping back to watch their reaction is a scummy way to stir up the pot. I think gnarly knew this, so he changed it to “poke holes in arguments” which sounds a lot better. I’ll buy that he might have changed his wording according to your perception, but I continue to think your own argument is essentially semantic. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/762 "2011-06-02T15:56:12Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > **vote gnarlycharlie** > for voting for a player they’re not suspicious of. Townies need to vote for players they think are scum. > > I still need to go back and catch up on the rest of Day One. I’ll likely be changing my vote then. Do you think that gnarlycharlie is scum? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/763 "2011-06-02T16:15:02Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > **vote gnarlycharlie** > > for voting for a player they’re not suspicious of. Townies need to vote for players they think are scum. > > > > I still need to go back and catch up on the rest of Day One. I’ll likely be changing my vote then. > > Do you think that gnarlycharlie is scum? Sorry, I should have been more explicit. “Townies need to vote for players they think are scum” is the contrapositive of “players not voting for who they think are scum are not town”. So yes, I think **charlie** is likely scum because of their vote. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/764 "2011-06-02T16:19:13Z")
Wait what? If gnarly is town, then he’s not voting for someone he thinks is scum, so therefore he’s scum. Joseph Heller called - he wants his Catch-22 back. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/765 "2011-06-02T16:24:35Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I’ll buy that he might have changed his wording according to your perception, but I continue to think your own argument is essentially semantic. Might? According to my perception? My argument is not semantic. And I see no reason for you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/766 "2011-06-02T16:32:09Z")
I mentioned this before, but I’m on Normal’s side here. I find gnarly pretty suspicious over all, but I’m just not seeing this particular issue. > [@](#): > > You said that you poke people and step back to watch reactions. When challenged on this, you tried to say that you poke holes in arguments which is quite different than poking people for reactions. Would you say that poking people can include attacking their arguments? I feel that poking someone’s argument can be the same thing as poking someone. How else could they do it? There’s plenty to find scummy about gnarly, but this just isn’t it (in my opinion). ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/767 "2011-06-02T16:33:33Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Sorry, I should have been more explicit. “Townies need to vote for players they think are scum” is the contrapositive of “players not voting for who they think are scum are not town”. So yes, I think **charlie** is likely scum because of their vote. No, it’s not. “Townies need to vote for players they think are scum” is a statement about good gameplay - about how things should be. “Players not voting for whom they think are scum are not town” is in the form of a hard and fast rule - a statement about the way things are. You can’t get from an ought to an is. More importantly, you’ve played more than enough games to know that this just isn’t true. Town have a long and inglorious history of voting for players because they’re being disruptive, or they’ve done something silly. You may not like it. You may think they need not to do it. But you should know better than to declare that they don’t do it, and that therefore this behaviour is clear evidence of scumosity. I think this is a policy vote in disguise. And I would urge you not to make those, because town should vote for players they think are scum. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/768 "2011-06-02T17:15:21Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > There’s plenty to find scummy about gnarly, but this just isn’t it (in my opinion). :snipped and underlined by me: Then I guess I disagree with you and Normal. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/769 "2011-06-02T18:33:48Z")
Takes a village to make the world go 'round, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/770 "2011-06-02T19:00:42Z")
Question for Silver Jan: > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > It just worries me that **Astral** could forget his alignment and is it possible that there is a third faction? Ok, to my answer my own question, it is possible but is it likely? Why ask about a third faction here? I think this was prior to Stanislaus’ argument – what were you thinking that you said this? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/771 "2011-06-02T19:34:18Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Sorry, I should have been more explicit. “Townies need to vote for players they think are scum” is the contrapositive of “players not voting for who they think are scum are not town”. So yes, I think **charlie** is likely scum because of their vote. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > More importantly, you’ve played more than enough games to know that this just isn’t true. Town have a long and inglorious history of voting for players because they’re being disruptive, or they’ve done something silly. You may not like it. You may think they need not to do it. But you should know better than to declare that they don’t do it, and that therefore this behaviour is clear evidence of scumosity. I think this is a policy vote in disguise. And I would urge you not to make those, because town should vote for players they think are scum. \*\*Stanislaus \*\*is right here. Can we not let this turn into a discussion of what’s a policy vote vs. what’s a good scum-hunting rule? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/772 "2011-06-03T01:34:14Z")
Ed review (and he had 76 posts in one day? Yeesh.): 129 - handshake attempt 142 - confirms wincon is as per 2nd edition sample PM 146 - fluff 181-2 - queries Astral on how he could miss Raftdwelling Slumlords in his alignment field 185: hypothesizes Astral was Scum & surprised to see a second scummy-sounding faction mentioned 190: continues querying Astral 216-7 - responding to Stanislaus who says Astral is most likely 3rd party > [@special\_ed](#): > > No, it makes just as much sense if not more were he Scum. > > He knows he’s a member of ALE. He sees this CARS faction mentioned and wants to make sure Town pays attention to them as well. Or he actually genuinely thought there might be a 3rd faction besides his own 231 - accuses Astral of fabricating fake PM 241-2 - asks Astral how he came to think there was a 3rd party based on that PM 245 quote > [@special\_ed](#): > > Here you were ‘guessing’ there were 3rd party who would not communicate. > > Also, here you seem to think the 3rd party members are a part of the ALE. Which your PM indicates you can detect. Yet you’re a weak detective who cannot detect them. > **Vote: Astral** 282 fluff 290 further explains vote reasoning 296 - counterqueries Hirka 297,299 fluff 301 - notes plausible scummy explanation for Astral to claim a different wincon 368 - response to Normal vote on Gnarly - reasons to not vote suspicions esp. in hammer game 369 - re Hirka not knowing who to vote for: scum tell? 380-1 - disagrees w/ SisCo re: above 379 - quote to Pleo > [@special\_ed](#): > > Since you’ve gone metagame how about providing a breaktown > > Out of those 9 times, how many times were you lying and how many time were you honest? How does that correlate with your alignment? 384 semifluff 388 - queries gnarl’s vote history - early or late? 401 - queries Astral re: night 0 PM exchange 402 - defends handshake/claim to SisCo - speculates on Pleo 405 - explains handshake to Weedy 408 - notes always thinks SisCo is scummy (side issue - I disagree with Maha on his interpretation of gnarly’s 410) 419 - queries Maha re: gnarly 429-433 - restates case on Astral 438 - agrees with Normal > [@special\_ed](#): > > That’s a good point. > > He knew his PM didn’t match the published one, but he didn’t notice it enough to see that he needed to eliminate the threats to the team that was his own alignment. 442 - further with SisCo re: his “claim” or not 444 - semifluff 448 - partial review of Pleo history - not completed afaik 472 - semifluff re review 488 - places Astral’s & Sister’s claims sidebyside 507 - unvotes Astral after Normal vouches for similar formatting 519 - semifluff 529 - to SisCo: “why do you continue to avoid Scum hunting?” 535, 547,548 - semifluff to Pleo 572 - to Tom: weak cop might not provoke counterclaim, also role claim has to indicate alignment only team 573 - thinks weak cop could also indicate third-party power 579, 592, 593 - cont. 572,3 Worth noting that the above were direct interaction with me; someone else may want to review and see if I’m eliding some element of suspicion that would have led scum-me to want ed gone soonest 591, 597 - thinks Jan’s vote on gnarly at 581 is possibly a Scum hemming and hawing 603 - votes Fubble with little comment 609-610 - further on fubble vote 616 queries Jan re her 615 (and unvote of gnarly) 623 - semifluff 643, 646 back n forth with fubble 677,679 (night) - speculates on forensic scientist role. Notes: he put pressure on Astral, obviously, but also Jan, Pleo, and to a lesser extent Hirka. Possibly was killed to remove said pressure; possibly was killed because scum thought he might be a forensic scientist (per night speculation); possibly just killed because hey it’s ed, he’s a good player. His examination of Pleo’s past claims was unfinished. Not sure where to go from there. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/773 "2011-06-03T02:58:31Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Ed review (and he had 76 posts in one day? Yeesh.): > > [snip review] > > Notes: he put pressure on Astral, obviously, but also Jan, Pleo, and to a lesser extent Hirka. Possibly was killed to remove said pressure; possibly was killed because scum thought he might be a forensic scientist (per night speculation); possibly just killed because hey it’s ed, he’s a good player. > > His examination of Pleo’s past claims was unfinished. > > Not sure where to go from there. I agree that it’s important to look back through **ed’s** posts, but we have to be careful about assigning any motivation to why he was killed – it’s wifom all the way down. His suspicions, on the other hand, we now know were legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/774 "2011-06-03T03:31:19Z")
Thank god my damn new motherboard works now. Will be around more often once the RAID array rebuilds. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/775 "2011-06-03T04:31:51Z")
Sorry I haven’t posted in a bit–thought Nights were Fluff-Only, and then I got caught up in an archive binge. I don’t find the cases on either gnarlycharlie or Astral Rejection convincing, but (and correct me if I’m wrong) it’s not an either-or thing. I’m voting for **Vote: Pleonast** again. His actions look more scummy now than they did before what with fubbleskag flipping town. ---
**Author:** ![nesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@nesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nesta)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/776 "2011-06-03T04:49:45Z")
**gnarlycharlie** , voting for yourself is a distraction. You say you are doing it because you are disappointed in people’s reasoning in voting for you. Either it’s a manipulative “pity me” scum play, or you are really town and that frustrated. Either way it’s anti-town. > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > [snip] > > **i will NOT unvote for the rest of the Day even to save myself.** i will continue with the limited time i have to contribute and share my thoughts. i may even ‘vote’ even if they will note count ala **Pleo** or just FOS. > > with that i continue to pack. good day! > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > okay, let’s be clear. i’m NOT giving up on the game. it is my most strenuous way of expressing my disappointment in people’s reasoning. > > [snip] > > i think i’ve already addressed #s 1 to 4. as for #5, i’m still packing and unable to reread D1. i have a few more days this Day so i will definitely contribute after our move. **but i still will not unvote.** [bolding mine] Why are you so adamant that you won’t unvote yourself Today? What if you find someone you are convinced is scum? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/777 "2011-06-03T05:08:16Z")
**Correction: The Hammer for today is 12 not 10.** ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/778 "2011-06-03T08:24:16Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Question for Silver Jan: > > Why ask about a third faction here? I think this was prior to Stanislaus’ argument – what were you thinking that you said this? I was just asking a question, do you think it’s likely that there is a Third Faction? **Inner Stickler** actually mentioned a Third Party when talking about\*\* Astral\*\* in post 147. I have never played a game with a Third Party wincon. (I might be confusing Factions and Parties here because this is new to me) I have played a game with 4 Factions but we were told about that up front. So what I really wanted to ask is: do you think it is likely that there could be a single player with their own wincon? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/779 "2011-06-03T09:03:35Z")
> [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I was just asking a question, do you think it’s likely that there is a Third Faction? **Inner Stickler** actually mentioned a Third Party when talking about\*\* Astral\*\* in post 147. I have never played a game with a Third Party wincon. (I might be confusing Factions and Parties here because this is new to me) I have played a game with 4 Factions but we were told about that up front. So what I really wanted to ask is: do you think it is likely that there could be a single player with their own wincon? There have been many games that did have single players with their own wincon. As this is a closed game, it’s impossible to say how likely it is that we have one - but it would not be unprecedented. Usually (in the vast majority of cases) third parties don’t steal the win - they can achieve their wincon in parallel to one or other of the two main factions. However, it’s also not worth worrying about. As we don’t know anything about any putative third party, we don’t know what they’ll be trying to achieve. This makes it difficult to go looking for them. We do know what scum are trying to achieve, so it makes sense to focus on them. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/780 "2011-06-03T09:18:52Z")
Thanks **Stanislaus** , it was a question that I had asked quite early on day 1, mainly for something to talk about but **Normal** wanted an answer as to why I had asked it. I think he was wondering why I brought it up first when in fact, I hadn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=40)