# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/821 "2011-06-03T22:07:53Z")
Jan on Astral: > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > So, I am confused already, my usual state in these games. This is the first time I have played a closed game. I also thought that Raftdwelling Slumlords was a scummy sounding name, although I don’t think I would have forgotten it. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > It just worries me that **Astral** could forget his alignment and is it possible that there is a third faction? Ok, to my answer my own question, it is possible but is it likely? > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > In the game I played on FB my scum friend posted on the wrong board, no one picked him out for it though while the rest of us just held our breath lol :eek: > > @ **Astral** , do you really think it will make a difference if you claim? It will give us all something to talk about for sure but will you be telling the truth? This is the one post in all of this that gives Jan townie points in my eyes, but only because I can make no sense of it in terms of scum motivation. It would seem to discourage a claim (if anything), and I don’t see scum doing that except in a bid to gain town cred, and this doesn’t look like that to me. See below for the rest of the comments. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I must say that I am not happy about anyone claiming a role like the detective (even a weak one) without knowing if there is a doctor in the game, or even a watcher. It makes me very uncomfortable, especially so early on the first day. I am not really sure what to make of it. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I really don’t think that **Astral** needed to claim so early and it has been worrying me all day so with that > > Vote Astral > > That on top of his slip makes me think he is Scum or 3rd Party, I also didn’t like the way he almost dared **Gnarly** to vote for him. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ Normal, it would be very strange if I had a watertight case to vote for someone on Day 1, don’t you think? I am voting for someone that has done things that make me suspicious and after reading his answer to Nestas’ question, I find it even more peculiar that he didn’t share that bit of information about his conversation with Red while defending himself. > > The quote was from Normal > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ Astral I am not going to give you a free pass but I will > > Unvote Astral > > I don’t even think that I have a very strong case against you and I would hate to mislynch the cop (even a weak one) on the first day. So now back to re-reading again! Jan is initially hesitant to commit on Astral on the basis of the original case (forgetting alignment). I have to say that “I’m confused” in a situation like that – where a potentially town player is being accused for a rather “meta” reason – feels scummy to me. As I’ve alluded to previously I think such situations are very difficult for scum to figure out how to handle. So this pings, as does the maybe yes/maybe no of the following post, to a lesser extent. (The response to the third party thing reduces that to a null tell in itself.) Jan does vote after Astral’s claim, on the reasoning that it was too soon/too reckless. I think this reason is wrong, I’m not sure it’s scummy in itself. What bothers me more is the unvote and the lead-up to it. I challenge Jan on the reasoning for her vote. When she responds, she talks about the vote not being very strong, it’s only day one, what do you expect, etc. There’s no sign of such an opinion in the vote post itself; in fact she characterizes Astral with “makes me think he is scum or 3rd party”. She also goes on to further justify the vote in the same paragraph. Simultaneous “well it’s weak, what do you expect”/“but here’s this other reason he’s suspicious”. Two types of justification, almost direct opposites. It doesn’t feel like a genuine explanation, more like “throw the kitchen sink at the problem and see what sticks”. (I’m liking my mixed metaphors lately, sue me.) And then the unvote, after that: the phrase about letting Astral off the hook rings false. Jan on gnarly up next as time permits. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/822 "2011-06-03T22:11:45Z")
NETA: “as does the maybe yes/maybe no of the following post” should be “as does the maybe yes/maybe no of the same post”. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/823 "2011-06-04T15:26:24Z")
Crikey, I feel like a bug under a microscope but it is very interesting all the same. I have noticed that none of my suspects have posted since I was on last night which makes it rather difficult to evaluate them after I posted my suspicions. The case on Pleonast is very interesting, I am reading with bated breath, I think he is one to add to my list. I am finding it a bit difficult to place a vote at the moment since I now have 4 suspects ☹ but I will definitely vote before the end of the day. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/824 "2011-06-04T16:41:01Z")
Just getting my head back into the game with a second read of the Day. To Gnarlycharlie. > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > i will NOT unvote for the rest of the Day even to save myself. i will continue with the limited time i have to contribute and share my thoughts. i may even ‘vote’ even if they will note count ala **Pleo** or just FOS. > > with that i continue to pack. good day! I’d estimate that it’s correct to vote for yourself less than one time in ten thousand, no matter what side you are on. Even then, such votes require circumstances where your continued existence to your side is hugely detrimental. I don’t believe the existence of such circumstances have been demonstrated. If you are CARS and are looking likely to be lynched, the best way you can help your side is with analysis and clearly indicated suspicions. The clearest way of indicating a suspicion is to place a vote; many people don’t regard a lesser indicator as worth anything. (Particularly if it’s in yellow text on a white background.) If you’re an ALE drinker, of course, you can ill afford to lose any of your number. The one advantage I can see is that it avoids having to make cases, and therefore perhaps inadvertantly giving away the identity of one of your fellow ALE drinkers. So maybe I should vote for you. Maybe later, if I find nothing better. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/825 "2011-06-04T18:26:21Z")
It’s “interesting”, Jan? Do you have anything to actually say about my post? ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/826 "2011-06-04T20:10:43Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > It’s “interesting”, Jan? Do you have anything to actually say about my post? Apart from the fact that you are dissecting me, you are reading things into my posts that I haven’t even thought of, I think I have a lot to learn from you. I am actually standing back and thinking “oh yeah, he could be right” and so on and so forth. I have never done that to anyone before, in my whole 5 games! I don’t like being dissected but I think I might do that to other people in future. As to me voting and unvoting\*\* Astral\*\*, I didn’t like his claiming that early, but **Astral** really defended himself and I believed him. You are right that when I said I wasn’t letting him off the hook (or words to that effect) I really was, so I know that did sound false and now you know why. Don’t ask me why I trust him now cos I couldn’t write it all down, just seems to me that he has really deflected everything that anyone has thrown at him, IMO. I can’t wait for the dissection of my gnarly post cos I may yet vote for him! ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/827 "2011-06-04T21:01:40Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Sorry, I should have been more explicit. “Townies need to vote for players they think are scum” is the contrapositive of “players not voting for who they think are scum are not town”. “Townies need to vote for players they think are scum” is one of those handy slogans that sounds plausible but is wrong. Townies need to vote for the player who’s death would, in the light of the voting player’s current knowledge of the gamestate, maximise the Town’s chances of winning the game. The vast majority of the time this will mean voting for possible Mafia. But not _always_. I can think of two cases where I personally voted for players I believed were Mafia-aligned (and I was correct in that belief both times), but should have voted for players who were not Mafia aligned. In one case my fellow Townies made the right choice and lynched the Townie; in the other the Town lost _because_ we lynched the Mafiate. Please remove your blinkers. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/828 "2011-06-04T21:49:17Z")
Normal’s a she, btw. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I can think of two cases where I personally voted for players I believed were Mafia-aligned (and I was correct in that belief both times), but should have voted for players who were not Mafia aligned. In one case my fellow Townies made the right choice and lynched the Townie Would that be Alien Taste and whichever game on Giraffe was before Bring Your Own Role? ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/829 "2011-06-04T21:54:24Z")
[quote=“SisterCoyote, post:828, topic:582387”] Normal’s a she, btw. 🙂 Well he should have said he’s a she (joke just a joke)😃 ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/830 "2011-06-04T21:56:09Z")
I want to read my next dissection!! ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/831 "2011-06-04T22:14:48Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Would that be Alien Taste and whichever game on Giraffe was before Bring Your Own Role? No. One would be Alpha Centauri. I’m sure _you_ remember Alpha Centauri. The other was Last Bastion, on Giraffe boards. Summaries follow. Alpha Centauri.[spoiler]Sister C was a Remorseful Vig; a killer who, if they killed the wrong person (ie another Townie) was required to target themselves the following Night. On Night 2, Sister C offed the wrong person, and confessed the next Day, including that she was required to target herself. The Doppelgangers had a redirector who could change a power’s target to another player. They now had two kills per Night. In order to slow the attrition down, town _had_ to lynch Sister C. Meanwhile I had identified a discrepancy in someone’s claimed actions, outing them as a Doppelganger. I didn’t switch votes that Day because I miscalculated the rate of attrition. By the time I did catch on we were committed to lynching Sister C. I think it gave us one extra Day to hunt Doppelgangers. We lost anyway.[/spoiler]Sorry Sister C, but you _did_ ask. Last Bastion.[spoiler]We were the survivors of the Apocalypse, holed up in a mystical refuge with Demons among us, and third parties in the shape of Horsemen of the Apocalypse. We had lynched a Horseman, so we knew of their existence, and a convoluted wincon that required being one of the last four players. We were down to five. I was vanilla Town. I correctly ID’d the last Demon as the player who had lurked so as not to give off Mafia tells, because I had not-Demon reads on all the others. We lynched the Demon. You can see what’s coming, can’t you? One of the last four was Death, the serial killer, played by Rysto. He killed and won. The annoying thing is that he had slipped, and I never caught it. If I had, I’d have wanted to lynch him first, just in case he was a PFK.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/832 "2011-06-05T01:19:15Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Sorry I haven’t posted in a bit–thought Nights were Fluff-Only, and then I got caught up in an archive binge. > > I don’t find the cases on either gnarlycharlie or Astral Rejection convincing, but (and correct me if I’m wrong) it’s not an either-or thing. > > I’m voting for > **Vote: Pleonast** > again. His actions look more scummy now than they did before what with fubbleskag flipping town. Could you explain this a little more? **Pleonast** had 6 votes on him yesterday, and I really don’t understand how he got them. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/833 "2011-06-05T01:57:36Z")
vote Hirka T’Bawa There are a few things I find suspicious. His vote for **Pleonast** had no reason given, just that he seems scummy. His vote for **gnarlycharlie** was because gnarly voted for Astral. Hirka believes Astral is town, and anyone who votes for him is automatically scummy. This is doesn’t seem fair to me. Even if Hirka has decided to trust Astral, there is plenty of reason to find Astral suspicious. Both **Pleonast** and **gnarlycharlie** have come in for a bit of suspicion from other people, so they are sort of ‘safe’ people for scum to vote for. The “I really hope we lynch scum” comment, near the end of Day 1. I’m sure all town hope that (barring special circumstances). That seemed just a bit like scum trying to establish their credentials. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/834 "2011-06-05T05:50:19Z")
Sorry, haven’t been posting much in this “day”, lots of life stuff going on, and still going on. But I wanted to respond to a vote against me… > [@Weedy](#): > > His vote for Pleonast had no reason given, just that he seems scummy. Which vote are you talking about? My first vote for him, with the whole multi-voting thing was more being fed up with Pleonast then anything else. I didn’t actually mean for those votes to count. Next time I posted, I unvoted him, voted for fubblestag since I believed Astral, didn’t want him lynched, and voted for the 2nd person on the vote list to protect him. I then devoted fubble’s since his claim was accepted by me to be legit, and then voted for the next highest in the vote count I didn’t believe. Do I believe Pleonast is scummy? I don’t know… He is playing the same way he did in the one and only game I played previous, when he was scum. As such, I don’t trust him… I wouldn’t mind him being lynched. > [@](#): > > His vote for **gnarlycharlie** was because gnarly voted for Astral. Hirka believes Astral is town, and anyone who votes for him is automatically scummy. This is doesn’t seem fair to me. Even if Hirka has decided to trust Astral, there is plenty of reason to find Astral suspicious. That is how I believe currently. Yes, there is still reason to be suspicious on Astral, even if I don’t believe in it. But **gnarlycharlie** ’s vote didn’t make a new case, was more of a “I thought he was suspicious, and I still do”. You do notice that he is the only one to vote for him “today”? Most of the other people who had cases against him have decided not to vote for him straight off… To me, trying to start the case against a claimed cop (who I believe) is acting scummy. And that’s why I voted for him. Nothing since has made me want to move my vote, even gnarly’s vote to himself seems like more of a “I’m innocent, lynch me and see!!!” bluff from scum hoping for the best. > [@](#): > > Both **Pleonast** and **gnarlycharlie** have come in for a bit of suspicion from other people, so they are sort of ‘safe’ people for scum to vote for. Might be, but the main reason I voted for gnarly is as I said, he voted for someone I believe is town, and beyond that, a claimed cop. As for Pleo, I would and will be happy for his lynch just because I don’t know how to read him. He’s confusing, and playing like the one game I’ve played with him, when he was scum. > [@](#): > > The “I really hope we lynch scum” comment, near the end of Day 1. I’m sure all town hope that (barring special circumstances). That seemed just a bit like scum trying to establish their credentials. Sorry if it seems that way… I just really hope we lynch scum, and at that point of day one, I had my doubts. I still have my doubts on gnarly, but haven’t seen any better cases to get behind at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/835 "2011-06-05T05:51:50Z")
NETA: Oh, the day ends on Monday at 7PM eastern right? I’ll try to make it back by then… depending on my life issues… I’ll be reading from my phone, but no idea when I’ll be back to my computer to actually post. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/836 "2011-06-05T15:00:54Z")
gnarlycharlie(6): Mahaloth[718], Hirka T’Bawa[723], Astral Rejection[725], Normal Phase[735], gnarlycharlie[740], Pleonast[760] Pleonast(3): pedescribe[775], Winston Smith[790], fluiddruid[791] Astral Rejection(1): gnarlycharlie[719] TexCat(1): Stanislaus[751] Inner Stickler(1): SisterCoyote[792] Hirka T’Bawa(1): Weedy[833] Did Not Vote:Tom Scud, Zeriel, TexCat, Inner Stickler, nesta, Silver Jan, MHaye With these votes gnarlycharlie would be lynched. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/837 "2011-06-05T17:34:43Z")
It has been awfully quiet in here. So after a lot of deliberation, I have decided to Vote Inner Stickler For reasons stated in my post #803 ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/838 "2011-06-05T19:19:22Z")
I’ve been hammered lately at work. I’m gonna do a quick reread of some new people later today. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/839 "2011-06-05T20:32:46Z")
Have not had the time this weekend to take a stab at any serious analysis and probably won’t. I’ve managed to tear myself away from cleaning up the house to do a bit of rereading, and this jumped out at me: > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Since I do believe Astral is town, and nothing that has happened overnight has made me doubt my belief, I have to assume that anyone who is still trying to start a bandwagon against him must be scum trying to get rid of a cop without worrying about a doctor protecting him… So, with that whole vote early and vote often thing, I’m going ahead and… > > **Vote gnarlycharlie** Um. This is a bad vote. **vote hirka** ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/840 "2011-06-05T20:37:07Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > To Gnarlycharlie. > > … > If you are CARS and are looking likely to be lynched, the best way you can help your side is with analysis and clearly indicated suspicions. > > … > > If you’re an ALE drinker, of course, you can ill afford to lose any of your number. > > The one advantage I can see is that it avoids having to make cases, and therefore perhaps inadvertantly giving away the identity of one of your fellow ALE drinkers. So maybe I should vote for you. This, however, seems solid. I know when, as a scum, I started drawing serious suspicion, it made it really really hard to figure out how to approach other cases; throw teammates under the bus? Gun really hard for a vulnerable Town player? It was a serious temptation to just drop it all and go away. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=43)