# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 69
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1361 "2011-06-23T10:42:18Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Stan, why did you color Zeriel purple in your voting chart? You ignored all other claims when colorizing it. We as a town don’t know for a fact that Zeriel is a third-party. It’s a non-town claim, so it stands out. I was in two minds about colouring town claims, but decided to leave it out. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1362 "2011-06-23T12:33:56Z")
**MHaye** claimed vanilla at 1263. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1363 "2011-06-23T12:34:11Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Did you claim, MHaye? I can’t find one from you. Yes, in post [post=13933807]1263[/post]. Back later. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1364 "2011-06-23T13:02:14Z")
Ok, thanks. I’m really curious as to what happened in the night now. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1365 "2011-06-23T13:38:38Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > That was _your_ fault, was it? What was my fault? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1366 "2011-06-23T13:42:43Z")
Somebody’s been holding out on us? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1367 "2011-06-23T14:40:25Z")
I’m not sure what’s going on with this MHaye vs. Mahaloth exchange, but it’s making me twitchy. One of you two needs to clarify some stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1368 "2011-06-23T14:50:51Z")
I agree it’s a little late in the game to be coy about roles/results/etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1369 "2011-06-23T15:00:59Z")
I do see a possiblity that is consistent with the revealed roles, but I’d like to see MHaye and Mahaloth spell it out. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1370 "2011-06-23T15:15:35Z")
OK I’m done reading up on nesta. Her day one case against fubbleskag was (minus a few confirmation-bias sort of quibbles) really quite solid. However, pretty much everything else looks like scum. To summarize: – very tentative (while yet mildly encouraging) against the established bandwagons on townies Astral and gnarlycharlie on day one and day two. Both times there was no comment by nesta at all until the bandwagon was well established. Both times she contributed to the suspicion (with Astral, with meta-ish concerns regarding PIS/setups in other games; with gnarlycharlie, with self-vote is scum or anti-town) without actually voting. Her first comment about Astral (227) > [@nesta](#): > > > [@Normal Phase](#): > > > > Not what I was referring to. Astral mentioned a change due to a “double hammer” (by which I assume he means the “both can die in a tie” rule). The correction needed due to that was to the win condition, which was amended in post 23. > > This is what’s bugging me. Astral paid enough attention to the win condition to note the “double hammer” correction, but somehow not enough attention to realize what team he was on? Even after comparing his PM to that in post 1 to agree with Ed that they didn’t match? Something doesn’t add up. > > This post also strikes me as having too much information: > > > [@Astral Rejection](#): > > > > I’m guessing this is directed at me. Red has intimated that the color can provide hints about the game state. Since he’s now used two different ways to describe the opposing force,\*\* I’d guess that there’s a scum team that can communicate, plus a 3rd party or two that can not communicate\*\*, and together they form the “Associated League of Evil.” > > [bolding mine] > > Is it that standard now to have only one scum party that can communicate? I remember a number of games with multiple scum factions that could. I find that accusations of PIS, when the subject is as generic as “most games have only one traditional scum team”, come disproportionately from scum. Nesta goes on to ask Astral a series of questions about Night Zero, but they don’t really go anywhere and I’m not sure ever had any chance to. 776 > [@nesta](#): > > **gnarlycharlie** , voting for yourself is a distraction. You say you are doing it because you are disappointed in people’s reasoning in voting for you. Either it’s a manipulative “pity me” scum play, or you are really town and that frustrated. Either way it’s anti-town. > > > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > > > [snip] > > > > i will NOT unvote for the rest of the Day even to save myself. i will continue with the limited time i have to contribute and share my thoughts. i may even ‘vote’ even if they will note count ala Pleo or just FOS. > > > > with that i continue to pack. good day! > > > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > > > okay, let’s be clear. i’m NOT giving up on the game. it is my most strenuous way of expressing my disappointment in people’s reasoning. > > > > [snip] > > > > i think i’ve already addressed #s 1 to 4. as for #5, i’m still packing and unable to reread D1. i have a few more days this Day so i will definitely contribute after our move. but i still will not unvote. > > [bolding mine] > > Why are you so adamant that you won’t unvote yourself Today? What if you find someone you are convinced is scum? This comment is unexceptional except in terms of the pattern mentioned above (late to the party, mild boosting of the established case, but no vote, only questions (which in this case are not followed up on at all: nesta says she was busy and has only one further post on Day Two, near its end, in which she comments negatively on Hirka and votes gnarly, all for reasons established by other people). – day three and four, early contribution to scum hunting disappears entirely. Day three she has a summary of the early claims (calling none out as suspicious, which while undoubtedly fair is also safe), a brief kerfuffle with Astral over the night zero stuff, then votes for TexCat very late in post 1069. > [@nesta](#): > > The points about TexCat ignoring questions and misrepresenting others seem solid to me. > > Some things about her claim post also seem off to me, especially this part: > > > [@TexCat](#): > > > > In most games where we would have death reveals, I probably would not claim here. But I think it beneficial for town to know that I am, > > She claims vanilla, but says she probably wouldn’t claim if not for lack of death reveal. I don’t find claiming itself suspicious under the circumstances, but the stated reason doesn’t seem logical to me. If anything it’s giving the scum more information than they would have otherwise. > > Vote TexCat As with gnarlycharlie on day two, the case is already done and dusted by the time she votes (or in this case, even comments at all). I don’t agree with what she does add; at worst the vanilla claim was neutral. Day Four was just a couple of error corrections (mine and hers), plus her claim post, before voting Silver Jan dead last in post 1305. > [@nesta](#): > > I don’t think possibly wasting a lynch on pedescribe is a good idea unless it can’t be avoided. I’m hoping he comes back or Red makes a ruling. > > I’ve been going back through Silver Jan’s posts, and found them incredibly difficult to parse. That might be just posting style, but she waffles all over the place and seems to vote based more on what people think of her at any given moment than honest suspicion. > > Also, the self-vote thing again: > > > [@Silver Jan](#): > > > > Well this is a strange start to a day. I want to give Astral the benefit of the doubt for now because he sounds plausible. > > > > gnarley’s vote on himself is like saying “please read what I have to say” I don’t think it’s a scum vote because I don’t think scum would vote for themselves like that. It’s a bit annoying that he has done it. If he flips Town people will reconsider his arguments. I don’t like it when people vote for themselves! It doesn’t help either team. > > > [@Silver Jan](#): > > > > OH ok, fair enough I suppose, just note that I did unvote both although the way gnarly voted for himself, I should have kept my vote on him. You read more into my posts than I do, I hadn’t even thought of it like that. > > [bolding mine] > > She defends the self-vote, but doesn’t like it, and then says she should have kept the vote on gnarley fot it. Now she’s doing the same thing. > > With the waffling and aw-shucks style it’s just a little too much. > > [strike]Vote Silver Jan[/strike] (hammer vote?) > > -On review a quick vote count shows we might be at the hammer vote. I’ll hold off in case anyone else wants to chime in at the last minute, unless someone wants to point out that we aren’t at hammer. I also can’t figure out how to do strike-through on this board, but hopefully my meaning is clear. (She votes for real after an exchange with MHaye.) I can’t argue much with this vote, obviously, though none of that had anything to do with why I voted for her. (In fact, the comments directly aimed at gnarly were the most genuine thing about her, IMO.) Finally, a day one comment aimed at gnarly that felt scummy in its own right (post 604): > [@nesta](#): > > > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > > > 1. crystallized huh? then it isn’t bulletproof? i guess those words aren’t mutually exclusive but don’t seem to match. leaving wiggle room in case i flip Town? > > In case you flip Town? If **Astral** is town he wouldn’t need to leave wiggle room. If he’s scum he would probably know how you’re going to flip. What exactly are you accusing him of here? As with the quasi-PIS argument used against Astral up top, that “in case” is the kind of “scum slip” that scum seem to jump on out of all proportion to townies. Plus, it’s obvious enough what gnarly is saying about Astral, that he is deliberately hedging his bet so as not to bear too much responsibility if and when he contributes to lynching (townie) gnarly. I don’t see any source of confusion for nesta here, so the question looks like fake-townie. nesta looks like scum to me – capable of making strong arguments, but mostly avoiding the necessity. (And by the way, any strings of extraneous letters found anywhere in the above are the fault of my mouse pad, which came back from the repairman yesterday about ten times as sensitive as it was previously. I keep nailing it with my knuckle and winding up with the cursor who-knows-where.) ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1371 "2011-06-23T15:20:04Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I do see a possiblity that is consistent with the revealed roles, but I’d like to see MHaye and Mahaloth spell it out. Well, so do I, but it requires a couple of assumptions that are counter-intuitive to me (that Red Skeezix would inform a no-power player of being hobbled; and that MHaye wouldn’t have internalized Mahaloth’s role yesterday already). Assuming that’s what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1372 "2011-06-23T15:26:43Z")
I should probably add that I’m reading MHaye as town (on the strength of his day one contributions), so I’m not expecting the resolution of this mystery to turn up anything worth voting for, but I suppose we shall see. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1373 "2011-06-23T16:01:18Z")
I like your case on nesta; I think the points you raise are valid. I went through some of the posts as well just now and I feel that the focus on players we now know to be town and the lack of any real followup for cases makes me feel comfortable voting for nesta. It reads very townie scumhunter without actually requiring scum bussing. **vote nesta** ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1374 "2011-06-23T16:18:08Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m not sure what’s going on with this MHaye vs. Mahaloth exchange, but it’s making me twitchy. > > One of you two needs to clarify some stuff. I’ll be happy to, but I want to hear Mhaye’s answer to my question first. Mhaye, what was my fault? ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1375 "2011-06-23T18:00:35Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Nah, I guess I just don’t follow how mad bombers work. I guess it figures that I have a bomb on me. I just keep waiting to blow up. > > So it looks like neither MHaye or Winston did the NK last Night. > > I don’t want to get into it, but something happened at Night that indicated to me that MHaye didn’t do the NK. He may be scum, though. - > [@MHaye](#): > > That was _your_ fault, was it? = **Vote MHaye** ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1376 "2011-06-23T18:02:43Z")
Finally tracked down the Zeriel stuff. First, Stanislaus’ day one case against Zeriel, which MHaye seconded (post 627): > [@MHaye](#): > > I’ve just reread Stanislaus’s case against Zeriel, complete with a review of the linked posts. > > I tend to agree with Stanisalus’s summary. > > > [@Stanislaus](#): > > > > Going through that, it at first seemed that my initial impression was wrong. Although there has been a fair amount of discussion about generic game theory, and responding to new players’ questions, Zeriel has been pretty focused on challenging Astral. > > > > However, this is not scum hunting. Zeriel explicitly says that he thinks Astral is a third-party survivor. So not ALE, and not an immediate threat to Town. Zeriel himself says as much: > > > > > [@Zeriel](#): > > > > > > Nabbing a PFK is somewhat good but not nearly as good as nabbing a scum. > > > > > > Take the traditional PFK, the serial killer: since they have to kill everyone, killing scum is just as beneficial as killing town for them. > > > > > > Nabbing a non-exclusive-win third party is beneficial, or not, depending on how that third party has been acting and what their powers are. On the other hand, killing them if they’re playing in support of town is not as bad as killing a real townie because they typically don’t count towards town’s majority in games I’ve played in. > > > > > > Take the traditional 3rd-Party, the survivor: since they have no powers except voting, and are going to be trying to blend in with town (and thus voting like town), killing them is somewhat bad but not as bad as killing a real townie. > > > > It’s very difficult to reconcile this post with Zeriel’s pursuit of what he believes is a third-party survivor and failure to look anywhere else for scum. I’m inclined to think that Zeriel is Scum who thinks he has found a safe “pro-Town” vote that won’t draw much attention. > > vote Zerie > > lMy main issue with Zeriel’s case is that there is no way AR’s claimed power was given to a third party. It can only hurt the ALE drinkers, thus giving them all the incentive they need to kill AR. Powers given to third party players (as distinct from those playing for keeps) should have the aim of keeping them alive. This does exactly the opposite. > > Worse, if the ALE drinkers have an unstoppable kill, AR is dead come Dawn, even if the Doc protects him. (We can’t, at this stage, rule that possibility out.) > > Vote Zeriel\*\* > > I’m going to review fubbleskag, as it might be worth shifting my vote if it will open up the possibility of saving R and giving him some rope to play with. That will come a bit later though. So there’s the reference to someone saying Zeriel had pursued someone he believed to be a third party survivor. Zeriel did have a vote on Astral and spent a lot of time talking about him, though he eventually unvoted Astral on the basis of MHaye’s expansion of Pleonast’s “wait a few days and re-evaluate” argument. Did Zeriel actually say he believed Astral is a third party survivor (as opposed to PFK, as he states earlier toDay)? Well, yes, he did, in post 458 (internal quotes not included this time): > [@Zeriel](#): > > Many games have Night 0 starts. > > \*\*Pleonast \*\*is in the game, he’s a walking example of why scum might go out on a limb with an early claim. It’s not that uncommon a tactic, especially with a plausible but rare role in a closed game. > > Heh, that’s why _I_ think you’re likely to be 3rd-party survivor and angling to get the doc helping you out. Where does Zeriel vote for Astral? Early on in post 160 (pre-claim) for the same reason as all the other early votes. He doesn’t like Astral’s early claim, same as Silver Jan (scum) and Pleonast (town), says he could see Astral as third party/survivor, keeps his vote on. In 563 after criticism from Stanislaus reiterates that early cop claim is anti-town whether Zeriel is the suspected survivor role or not. Only in the unvote post of 653 does he EVER mention PFKs: > [@Zeriel](#): > > Y’know, that’s actually a good point I hadn’t thought of, and it balances out the chance that he’s a SK or some other PFK type we’d have to lynch anyway. It’s enough to give him a night and see if he manages to investigate, anyway. > > unvote Astral\*\* > > Still not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt if he doesn’t come up with something soon, though, since we KNOW our wincon requires both the scum and any hostile PFKs that might exist to be dealt with. > > Regarding other major extant cases: I don’t really think \*\*fubbleskag \*\*is scum, based solely on the fact they put themselves in the vote lead by breaking a tie (tie votes heavily favor scum with this tiebreaking mechanic, as I’ve worked out in other games). > > I find myself strangely unwilling to vote for **Pleo** , despite the magic bag. It’s far too close to the deadline to try to get a claim out of him, and I think he’s away anyway. > > I also find myself generally annoyed at ties close to the deadline because the tiebreaker mechanic heavily favors any scum who are involved in the tie. vote Hirka T’Bawa This is after the two votes on him for wanting to lynch someone he thinks is a survivor. Smacks of backing and filling. And I thought of one more thing just now: if you yourself are a survivor, Zeriel, why would you ever conceive of Astral as the same? Games with more than one survivor are not exactly common. I’m not sure whether not actually being town and trying to survive a game without the scum killing you off can account for stuff like this. In some ways Zeriel does act like a third party more than like scum (the votes for Hirka, for instance, which I’d believe a scum Zeriel would be more likely to avoid than to indulge in – he does know how to play this game; and the innumerable references to why third parties should be left unmolested). In other ways he acts more like scum (pursuing Astral at all, who should be zero threat to a real third party but not so much for scum; the BS reasoning described above). If someone’s doing nothing much over the next hour or so, links to any arguments from yesterday on why Zeriel would fit (or not) as the mad bomber would be appreciated, because I’ve forgotten them. Whatever he is, he’s certainly full of shit. (I say with all due respect.) ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1377 "2011-06-23T18:07:32Z")
Last Night, someone performed an action on me. I was informed of the overt manifestations of this action by PM from Red Skeezix, and the consequences. I chose, at the time, not to say anything about it, for two reasons; firstly, it was my thought that if the person responsible for the action were a Slumlord they might admit it, whereas an ALE-drinker or other threat to our glorious collective would keep it hidden. Secondly it was gone midnight, and I did not wish to say anything without sleeping on it first. When I woke up this morning I saw post [post=13947055]1350[/post]. In it, mahaloth said: - > [@Mahaloth](#): > > So it looks like neither MHaye or Winston did the NK last Night. > > I don’t want to get into it, but something happened at Night that indicated to me that MHaye didn’t do the NK. He may be scum, though. It appeared from this as if you knew what had happened to me, and who would know better than the person who did it? The exact mechanism is something I could see an Inventor using, since it involved a mechanism. Hence I asked if it were your fault. Since then, another possible culprit has stuck their head above the parapet. To understand this, I must first reveal the PM from Red. [QUOTE=Red Skeezix] On your way back to bed last night you stepped in a bear trap. This will make things like walking and performing night actions more difficult for you. [/QUOTE] The interesting thing about today’s discussion is post [post=13948665]1371[/post] from Normal Phase. > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Well, so do I, but it requires a couple of assumptions that are counter-intuitive to me (that Red Skeezix would inform a no-power player of being hobbled; and that MHaye wouldn’t have internalized Mahaloth’s role yesterday already). Assuming that’s what you’re talking about. (Bolding mine.) What made you think I had been restricted in my movement capacity, Normal? Winston, if you’re going to vote me I think I (and everyone else) deserve some actual justification as to how those two posts combine to prove me an ALE drinker. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1378 "2011-06-23T18:16:17Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > So there’s the reference to someone saying Zeriel had pursued someone he believed to be a third party survivor. Stanislaus is full of crap–he’s using the fact (as are you, by proxy) that I said “survivor” in a post about evaluating when to kill vs. not kill 3rd-parties. > [@](#): > > Zeriel did have a vote on Astral and spent a lot of time talking about him, And how did I justify that, I wonder? Let’s, I dunno, look at my actual vote post . > [@Zeriel](#): > > I think I concur with the votes so far: it’s manifestly clear from both sample role PMs that “Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords” are the town faction, and missing that fact while looking at one’s own PM indicates to me that \*\*Astral \*\*is either probably NOT in the CARS or he is skimming. Hmm, no “survivor” there. There’s a lot of discussion between you and me on this very point, wherein I speculate about possible 3rd-party roles, wincons, and motives. You seem to be attaching a lot of “game structure/setup discussion” to the specific Astral case, which wasn’t what I was doing at all. In 322, I give another good reason to look askance at Astral–he claims with all of four votes on him, pretty early in the day. Seems like jumping the gun, I said at the time. > [@](#): > > Did Zeriel actually say he believed Astral is a third party survivor (as opposed to PFK, as he states earlier toDay)? Well, yes, he did, in post 458 (internal quotes not included this time): And you’ll note I expressly mention, not just “survivor”, but “attempting to utilize the doctor”. His claim, if it were spurious as I thought at the time, was likely to suck up any given doctor’s time and energy in the absence of a counterclaim, which was the only motive I could figure on for claiming “variant cop” while being confused about one’s win condition, and which is pretty anti-town. > [@](#): > > This is after the two votes on him for wanting to lynch someone he thinks is a survivor. Smacks of backing and filling. And I thought of one more thing just now: if you yourself are a survivor, Zeriel, why would you ever conceive of Astral as the same? Games with more than one survivor are not exactly common. Why would I, before I knew how town was going to react to third parties, do anything that made me act like I was in the know about something? I was sticking my neck out enough by talking about third parties at all, IMHO. > [@](#): > > (pursuing Astral at all, who should be zero threat to a real third party but not so much for scum; the BS reasoning described above). As I mentioned in discussion following the mass claim, if I got investigated I was going to come up “blocked” every time. Astral was very much a threat to me until we were at a point in the game where I could feel safer with an outright third-party claim. > [@](#): > > Whatever he is, he’s certainly full of shit. (I say with all due respect.) Accepted in the spirit it was entered. 😛 Actually, I HAVE been a mad bomber in another game. You can tell when I’m a mad bomber because I really, really suck at it, if that was any indication. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1379 "2011-06-23T18:23:55Z")
Mahaloth is pretty much confirmed, and I figured if he was saying _ **e** _ither you or I did the night kill last night, and I know I didn’t do it, so it must be you. And then you’re being coy, I assumed to divert attention away from this. Except Mahaloth didn’t say _ **e** _ither. Mahaloth said _ **n** _either. And so my rock-solid case was based on the absence of a single letter _n_\*, and upon discovery of this _n_, I **Unvote MHaye** :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1380 "2011-06-23T18:24:38Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > What made you think I had been restricted in my movement capacity, Normal? Apparently you in fact did not internalize Mahaloth’s claim. He claimed four powers: – block all actions from hitting someone on a given night – the nexus thing – sacrifice himself to protect a given player for two nights – “hobble” a player (delay all their subsequent actions by half a cycle) When he revealed his claim yesterday, after having been pushing for the mass claim all day up to then, my assumption was that he had done so because he had already used all powers except the self-sacrifice, and wanted full information about who to use it on, if anyone. Apparently that wasn’t the case, and he still had (at least) the hobble left, which he used on you. I wasn’t expecting it to be so literal as a bear trap. That’s kind of funny, actually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=68) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=70)