# Genre Fiction Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 19, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387 "2011-05-19T01:03:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1381 "2011-06-23T18:25:51Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > What made you think I had been restricted in my movement capacity, Normal? :dubious: Well, Maha’s PM lists four possible actions he can take: redirect all night actions to himself, hobble a player for what? half a cycle or something, protect one player one night, or sacrifice himself to protect a player for 2 nights. We know he already did the first one and he’s still alive so he can’t have done the last one and protecting a player doesn’t usually garner a “so it was your fault,” response. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1382 "2011-06-23T18:25:52Z")
Winston, knowing you are Lucifer at Giraffe explains so much. No offense. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1383 "2011-06-23T18:29:01Z")
Okay, that’s what I basically expected as well once Maha mentioned that MHaye couldn’t have performed the night kill. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1384 "2011-06-23T18:32:05Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Winston, knowing you are Lucifer at Giraffe explains so much. No offense. None taken. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1385 "2011-06-23T18:48:17Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Stanislaus is full of crap–he’s using the fact (as are you, by proxy) that I said “survivor” in a post about evaluating when to kill vs. not kill 3rd-parties. > > And how did I justify that, I wonder? Let’s, I dunno, look at my actual vote post . > Hmm, no “survivor” there. The vote post was prior to Astral’s claim; your “third party” issues with him stemmed from the cop claim specifically, so your vote post is irrelevant here. You specifically said you believe him to be a third party survivor. You never explicitly expanded that belief to include PFK until you finally unvoted him. All that time your vote remained on him – the guy you were saying you thought was a survivor. Stanislaus’ point is correct. > [@](#): > > There’s a lot of discussion between you and me on this very point, wherein I speculate about possible 3rd-party roles, wincons, and motives. You seem to be attaching a lot of “game structure/setup discussion” to the specific Astral case, which wasn’t what I was doing at all. > > In 322, I give another good reason to look askance at Astral–he claims with all of four votes on him, pretty early in the day. Seems like jumping the gun, I said at the time. There were five, as MHaye spent considerable effort schooling you on at the time. 🙂 > [@](#): > > And you’ll note I expressly mention, not just “survivor”, but “attempting to utilize the doctor”. His claim, if it were spurious as I thought at the time, was likely to suck up any given doctor’s time and energy in the absence of a counterclaim, which was the only motive I could figure on for claiming “variant cop” while being confused about one’s win condition, and which is pretty anti-town. All right. That is a tiny bit of evidence that you might have been thinking what you said you were thinking, as opposed to what you actually wrote down. > [@](#): > > Why would I, before I knew how town was going to react to third parties, do anything that made me act like I was in the know about something? I was sticking my neck out enough by talking about third parties at all, IMHO. Generic PFK would have done nicely and better justified your continued vote on him to boot. Mentioning survivor really makes no sense to me. It makes a hash both of your your keeping your vote on Astral and your later claim – why would any genuine survivor want to sow that sort of seed of doubt? It’s a hard enough claim to begin with. > [@](#): > > As I mentioned in discussion following the mass claim, if I got investigated I was going to come up “blocked” every time. Astral was very much a threat to me until we were at a point in the game where I could feel safer with an outright third-party claim. And as I said at the time, I think that’s just plain wrong. Astral would have had to investigate you and only you multiple times, while also being aware that there was no other reason to expect a roleblock, to even have a chance at guessing the problem originated with you specifically. > [@](#): > > Accepted in the spirit it was entered. 😛 Glad of it; I enjoy your play. > [@](#): > > Actually, I HAVE been a mad bomber in another game. You can tell when I’m a mad bomber because I really, really suck at it, if that was any indication. 😉 LOL. I was one once too. I wound up contributing to the outing of doc AND cop, then chewed on the OTHER cop’s tail for about five days before both of them finally investigated me. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1386 "2011-06-23T18:49:09Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I wasn’t expecting it to be so literal as a bear trap. That’s kind of funny, actually. Me neither. I hobbled MHaye at Night and did not realize that there would be any indication to the person it was done on. When he said it was my fault, I assumed he may have actually had an action delayed. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1387 "2011-06-23T20:28:39Z")
I think that’s resolved any queries I had, thanks. I had Mahaloth down as an inventor, but not what powers he had available. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1388 "2011-06-23T22:39:01Z")
M’back. M’pologies. M’catching up. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1389 "2011-06-24T00:16:18Z")
> [@nesta](#): > > The points about TexCat ignoring questions and misrepresenting others seem solid to me. > > Some things about her claim post also seem off to me, especially this part: > > She claims vanilla, but says she probably wouldn’t claim if not for lack of death reveal. I don’t find claiming itself suspicious under the circumstances, but the stated reason doesn’t seem logical to me. If anything it’s giving the scum more information than they would have otherwise. > > **Vote TexCat** This case bugs me a little bit, since it’s wrong. The town is in desperate need of information, while the scum are helped by it but don’t need it. We weren’t getting much from deaths, our normal source. This was before Maha claimed, IIRC, thus, it would make perfect sense that knowing that TexCat was 'niller would help the town. Given nesta’s pattern of bandwagon-jumping, this rather looks like a reason made up to fit a vote, rather then the other way around. > [@Weedy](#): > > I was just mostly confused, and trying to understand what people were saying. I didn’t quite understand the case against you until special ed laid it out in nice numbered steps. But then Normal and Stanislaus thought you were more likely to be third party. I didn’t follow that at all, since why would a third party bring attention to he fact that there are third parties. So I was pondering that. Then you claimed, and most people backed off, except for Ed. I hink it was Pleonast who basically said “we can always vote for him later”, and that was what I decided as well, since I couldn’t work out if you were 3rd party or scum, or neither. Given that a lot of people were making cases and being coherent, I didn’t want to keep posting, ‘huh?’ and ‘wait, what?’ and ‘umm, I dunno’, so I didn’t say anything till I made up my mind, and by then everyone (most people) had moved on. > > The comment about being confused, well, I am, quite a lot, so far in this game. It looked easier from the outside. But I obviously need to stop saying so quite so much. I can see how it would be a convenient excuse for scum to float along and not say much, but I don’t think I’m doing that. I think I say quite a lot, and I try to make it relevant and purposeful. > > Up until the redirect on Mahaloth, I thought there was good chance you were scum but we could deal with you later. I was interested to see who you would investigate and what result you would claim to get even if you were scum. Now I think you are probably town. This post just strikes me as earnest, and townie sounding. A point to Weedy. > [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > The Boston Bruins won the Stanley Cup last night. :: party :: > > Ahem. > > 1. LtL: I am strongly opposed to a lynch the lurker campaign. I think we’re more likely to bag a disinterested townie than determined-to-lurk scum. > > 2. Mass claim: I don’t know if it’s a good thing or a bad thing. I can’t remember ever playing a game in which we actually did it. If someone can recall a game where a mass claim was undertaken, and it helped town, I’d be interested in taking a gander at the game thread. > > 3. I need to shake out the cobwebs and re-read the last couple pages. > > 4. Did I mention that the Boston Bruins won the Stanley Cup last night? :: cue Dropkick Murphys :: It looks to me like Winston was deliberately stretching out his post to make it look like there was more to it. The fact that the list mixes fluff and content means that it might be mistaken, at first glance, for more content than it is. Most players would not benefit from such a thing, but Winston’s other posts are almost uniformly short. Looks like a CYA. > [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Okay, I have to throw this out there because it’s nagging at me: > > What if the incomplete reveals are because there are no Scum? > > Not that I think this is remotely likely, just throwing it out there because I want someone else to obsess about it, too. > > **Vote: Winston Smith** for specious reasoning and jumping to conclusions. This really looks like Sis Coyote is aiming to distract, since a) There’s an obvious answer, but b) it’s not so obvious that one wouldn’t look it up. I’m wondering if she’s covering for Winston, who made the “scum gloating” vote immediately prior. Yes, she votes him for it, but again, the previous statements could distract people from her own vote too. > [@Weedy](#): > > Normal, I reread all of Silver Jan’s posts. I find her quite believable as town. If she is scum, then she has created some kind of fake ‘confused Townie’ persona, and writes all her posts in that way. That seems pretty elaborate to me. That strikes me as a fairly specious defense, as it could apply to anyone who posts regularly. > [@Zeriel](#): > > **Red, can you prod or otherwise do something about pedescribe, please?** > > Metagame or not, he logged on to the Dope this morning according to his profile and has posted pretty consistently every few days elsewhere, and that tells me he’s consciously lurking and not merely having RL issues. Those facts elevate his lurking from merely anti-town to outright rude to the rest of us, IMHO. I…yeah. Sorry. No excuses. > [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > My role PM > [@Zeriel](#): > > Did I miss a consensus that we were mass claiming, somewhere? Here we see Winston jumping the gun again, after his previous gun-jumping on Mahaloth. He seems eager to contribute, but not eager enough to actually say things of substance. In particular, this reminds me of my gun-jumping claim in Glastnot, where I was the godfather. > [@Weedy](#): > > Still looking thorugh Days 2 & 3. > > Red had 16 of us alive today, but I can only think of 15: Silver Jan, fluiddruid, Normal Phase, Inner Stickler, Weedy, Sister Coyote, Tom Scud, Winston Smith, Mahaloth, Pedescribe, Zeriel, Astral, Mhaye, nesta, Stanislaus. > > That makes me even more worried about the urgency of finding someone. I think a mass claim would be good, because it gives more info. Mahaloth really seems to want one and he is in a position to know more than the rest of us, and is also presumed Town, so I think we should go for it. > > Thoughts on the poisoner: 3rd party? If it has a delayed result, Pleo must have been poisoned on Day 1. Mahaloth was probably poisoned on Night 2, hopefully the doc protected him. So hopefully no poison death tonight. The poisoner probably isn’t any of the people who voted for Pleonast Day 1. That leaves Silver Jan, Weedy, Sister Coyote, Zeriel, Mhaye, nesta, Stanislaus. Nobody leaps out as third party to me. It would be good to find them in case they kill more townies, but finding scum is much more important right now. I know I was going to say something about this post, but I can’t remember what. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > 1. I reiterate my frustration with Pedescrbie. This is not the first, and I don’t think the second time he has done this. I think he was Weasley brother with Storyteller and he never showed up after awhile. Story had to ask him to reveal himself. I can’t remember that one. The worst was when I abandoned Apocalypse as a townie, where the town lost in the end by one player. Anyway, you’re going to be even more frustrated with me when you find out I’m a tracker: > [@](#): > > Name: Harry Dresden > Alignment: Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords > Universe/Story: The Dresden Files > Role: Tracker > Powers: Each night you may target a player to follow and see who they visit. > Wincondition: You win when all threats to the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords have been vanquished AND at least one member of the Consolidated Alliance of Raftdwelling Slumlords are alive. and that all I can tell you is that Astral Rejection was blocked N1. > [@Zeriel](#): > > My point is exactly that–you are claiming that your vote is awesome, when there’s no damn way you could have known your vote was anything but a one-off on an unknown. > > The fact that I’m openly admitted to be 3rd-party doesn’t change the fact that you didn’t know on Day One, so my status is not relevant to the quality of your Day One vote. This exchange was confusing to me. Stan claimed that he made a good Day 1 vote on you…but does he actually want you dead? And you seem to be attacking the first vote, but not his current case? I think? > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > - I’m trying to think whether I think he’s more likely to be third party or scum if he’s using a cover role; my gut reaction is “third party”, but I don’t know if I can justify that. (One element of that is that Wednesday from the same fictional universe would be a perfect fit as a win-stealing third party). If Zeriel is telling the truth about his power (and since it’s confirmable, it’d be pretty ballsy if he weren’t), then he’s also unable to be protected by doctors or roleblocked. If he’s third party, that’s a drawback, since it means scum can kill him unhindered, but if he’s scum, then it’s a bonus, since he can’t be stopped from doing the kill by a roleblocker. I’d say, if Zeriel is lying, he’s probably still 3rd party. > [@Zeriel](#): > > There’s a lot of discussion between you and me on this very point, wherein I speculate about possible 3rd-party roles, wincons, and motives. You seem to be attaching a lot of “game structure/setup discussion” to the specific Astral case, which wasn’t what I was doing at all. Speaking of which, given that you originally thought that Astral Rejection was 3rd party, and given that you claim 3rd party yourself, did you actually think he was a fellow 3rd party, or were you trying to inject 3rd party discussion into the conversation as best you could? > [@Winston\_Smith](#): > > Mahaloth is pretty much confirmed, and I figured if he was saying _ **e** _ither you or I did the night kill last night, and I know I didn’t do it, so it must be you. And then you’re being coy, I assumed to divert attention away from this. > > Except Mahaloth didn’t say _ **e** _ither. Mahaloth said _ **n** _either. And so my rock-solid case was based on the absence of a single letter _n_\*, and upon discovery of this _n_, I > > **Unvote MHaye** > > :smack: Here Winston did the exact same thing he did with his Mahaloth vote–a quick, sparse-text vote, followed by a quick full retraction. It strikes me as, again, a good way to pretend to be participating without actually participating. **Vote Winston Smith** ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1390 "2011-06-24T02:33:05Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Speaking of which, given that you originally thought that Astral Rejection was 3rd party, and given that you claim 3rd party yourself, did you actually think he was a fellow 3rd party, or were you trying to inject 3rd party discussion into the conversation as best you could? Both, really. The confusion over what team he was on was a HUGE indicator to me that he was actually a third-party of some kind. Plus, it was kind of a way to prime the pump, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1391 "2011-06-24T04:29:51Z")
Who’s running the next game, just out of curiosity? I have an awesome concept, but not enough experience to run a game of my own, so I wanted to pitch my idea to whoever’s next. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1392 "2011-06-24T05:15:18Z")
[haunt] I have just been catching up, first, I want to thank whoever decided to kill me when they did. I’ve been busy this past week and weekend GRADUATING!!! I am now **Dr. Hirka T’Bawa, PharmD.**!!! Woot!!! I wouldn’t have had time to participate even if I was still alive. So, if I had to die, it was a good time to die 🙂 Second, Go Town!!! We can kill those scummy bastards! Also, good to see that **Astral** was really telling the truth, so all my defense of him on days 1 and 2 were correct, and I wasn’t wrong. [/haunt] ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1393 "2011-06-24T06:40:53Z")
Whoohoo! Congrats Dr. Hirka! ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1394 "2011-06-24T11:50:47Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > OK I’m done reading up on nesta. > > \ > > nesta looks like scum to me – capable of making strong arguments, but mostly avoiding the necessity. > > (And by the way, any strings of extraneous letters found anywhere in the above are the fault of my mouse pad, which came back from the repairman yesterday about ten times as sensitive as it was previously. I keep nailing it with my knuckle and winding up with the cursor who-knows-where.) You are making me look at nesta’s posts in a completely different way. I am still trying to wrap my head around what you are saying, but that part at the end (that I didn’t snip) I get. She knows how to make a case, but she just doesn’t. **vote nesta** ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1395 "2011-06-24T13:07:57Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Who’s running the next game, just out of curiosity? I have an awesome concept, but not enough experience to run a game of my own, so I wanted to pitch my idea to whoever’s next. PM me. I think I’m next to run one here and I want a co-mod. Mahaloth ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1396 "2011-06-24T13:41:59Z")
I wouldn’t mind getting in on that co-mod action myself. I complain about game balance enough that I really ought to see if doing a game design shuts my mouth or makes me insufferable. =P ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1397 "2011-06-24T14:41:36Z")
I can’t believe you guys are fucking bussing me. Fuck you, and fuck this game. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1398 "2011-06-24T14:47:50Z")
wut ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1399 "2011-06-24T14:49:23Z")
**UNOFFICIAL VOTE TALLY** Nesta(3): Normal Phase[1341], Inner Stickler[1373], Weedy[1394] Winston Smith(2): Sister Coyote[1358], Pedescribe[1389] Winston, you are aware that bussing is when scum vote for other scum, correct? So if Sister C and pedescribe are bussing you, that means all three of you are scum. Because that would make it a lot easier on the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387/1400 "2011-06-24T14:52:26Z")
**vote Winston** Will still do a reread on SisCo and Nesta and a couple others over the weekend. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/genre-fiction-mafia/582387.md?page=71)