# Gentile has question for Jews about dietary laws, etc. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 15, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827 "2003-01-15T21:25:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/21 "2003-01-16T14:54:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > **I mean, nowadays most people, when they’re not thinking about eating them, know that pigs are actually extremely intelligent and resourceful animals, and will stay pretty clean if allowed to be…** The kosher animals are generally neither intelligent nor resourceful. They’re generally easy to domesticate, herd, and tend. Although deer seem to me to be too swift to tend easily. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/22 "2003-01-16T14:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scuba\_Ben \* > \*\*They’re generally easy to domesticate, herd, and tend. \*\* Have you ever tried to domesitcate a giraffe? 😃 Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/23 "2003-01-16T15:29:59Z")
If one were to accidentally consume a non-kosher food, would that be considered a sin? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/24 "2003-01-16T15:54:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Caricci \* > \*\*If one were to accidentally consume a non-kosher food, would that be considered a sin? \*\* It depends. As with all actions in Judaism, there are different levels of “accident.” The first level is called _mayzid_. A _mayzid_ is a purposeful act, and, as such, a Jew who eats non-kosher food in such a manner is committing a sin. The second level is called a _shogeg_. A _shogeg_ bears some degree of negligence. The classic example of a _shogeg_ is someone who travels home by train on Friday afternoon, but did not leave sufficient time to allow for normal delays before the Sabbath begins. WRT foods, a _shogeg_ could be someone who, upon finding out that he ate non-kosher, realized that he could have prevented it by doing a more thourough investigation. Such a person bears some degree of guilt, but not to the extent of a _mayzid_. The third level is called _ones_ (pronounced oh-NES). An _ones_ is someone who was completely beyond fault. An example of an _ones_ WRT foods would be someone who ate a food that was certified as kosher by a reliable _kashrus_ certification agency, but then later found out (through a press release from the agency) that the food, in fact, contained non-kosher ingredients. The famous dictum in the Talmud is _ones rachmana patrei_ – an _ones_ is considered exempt from any punishments regarding his failure. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/25 "2003-01-16T16:07:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > **It should be pointed out, however, that objects that actually find their way into the actual rituals of other religions (communion wine, for example), would be forbidden (regardless of whether it is “kosher” or not).** I’m not sure I understand this correctly. If for example kosher wine was used for Christian communion does that mean that particular bottle of wine is now forbidden? FWIW my church uses grape juice so children (and incidentally recovering alcoholics) can commune though we have no prohibition against alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/26 "2003-01-16T16:11:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Padeye \* > \*\*I’m not sure I understand this correctly. If for example kosher wine was used for Christian communion does that mean that particular bottle of wine is now forbidden? > > FWIW my church uses grape juice so children (and incidentally recovering alcoholics) can commune though we have no prohibition against alcohol. \*\* Correct. Items used in religious rituals of other religions become forbidden not only for consumption, but for any benefit. Thus they can’t be eaten, sold, burned for fire fuel, fed to one’s animals, etc. The prohibition has nothing to do with it being wine vs. grape juice. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/27 "2003-01-16T16:30:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*Have you ever tried to domesitcate a giraffe? 😃 > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* Or even worse, hang one upside down to bleed it correctly. Thanks for the clarification Zev. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/28 "2003-01-16T19:49:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*Have you ever tried to domesitcate a giraffe? 😃 > \*\* Giraffe is kosher? Kewl! 🆒 Let’s have a cookout! Okay, who wants the thingies on top of the giraffe head? Seriously… I never realized (or maybe forgot) that giraffe is kosher. Does it otherwise act comparable to cattle & sheep? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/29 "2003-01-16T19:54:49Z")
In order for a mammal to be kosher it must have split hooves and chew it’s cud. Since a giraffe meets both those qualifications, it’s kosher. It has nothing to do with the way the animal behaves. (However, since carnivores do not chew their cuds, there are no kosher carnivores. You may read into that what you wish.) Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/30 "2003-01-16T20:14:53Z")
JeffB: > [@](#): > > What does it mean to say something is a “Rabbinic decree”? Does that mean that although it is not strictly the law, it carries the force of the law? Or does it mean it is more of a guideline? As others have pointed out, it does carry the force of law. There are certain circumstances in which a Rabbinic law is treated differently from a Biblical law - most notably in cases of doubtful violation - but for all intents and pourposes, they are to be considered as equal. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/31 "2003-01-16T21:25:59Z")
Hey, dumb question, but as long as you all are here: Herbivorous Dinosaurs: Kosher or not? I was debating a “scientific” creationist on the whole Flood story and he said that since men and dinosaurs lived at the same time, Noah took dinosaurs on the ark. The debate ended up degenerating of course, but he said they wouldn’t have been kosher so Noah only needed one pair, not the seven that are required for Kosher animals (as if that would make a difference with say, Brontosauruses) And does the “Birds evolved from dinosaurs” theory have any change your answer? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/32 "2003-01-16T21:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*Hey, dumb question, but as long as you all are here: > > Herbivorous Dinosaurs: Kosher or not? > > I was debating a “scientific” creationist on the whole Flood story and he said that since men and dinosaurs lived at the same time, Noah took dinosaurs on the ark. The debate ended up degenerating of course, but he said they wouldn’t have been kosher so Noah only needed one pair, not the seven that are required for Kosher animals (as if that would make a difference with say, Brontosauruses) \*\* Except that (in Jewish tradition) man wasn’t permitted to eat meat until after the flood anyway… In any event, there are no kosher reptiles. So, if through the magic of a Jurassic Park-type cloning you can come up with a dinasour, it would still be unkosher. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And does the “Birds evolved from dinosaurs” theory have any change your answer? > \*\* Nope. The Torah is very explicit on which birds are kosher and which one’s aren’t. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/33 "2003-01-16T23:57:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\* > > Except that (in Jewish tradition) man wasn’t permitted to eat meat until after the flood anyway… \*\* But wait…if that’s the case, then why was Abel raising sheep? (One of the drawbacks to a very Reform background: I’m somewhat embarassed to realize how much I _don’t_ know about my own religion. I’d never heard of that tradition. Or several other things in this thread.) Fenris ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/34 "2003-01-17T00:23:41Z")
Fenris: > [@](#): > > But wait…if that’s the case, then why was Abel raising sheep? We just had this question in another thread. Answer : wool. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/35 "2003-01-19T18:28:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*_Originally posted by Akatsukami_ > In previous generations, _talmidei chachim_ (scholars) were permitted to ignore _gezeirot_, as they were considered capable of making the fine distinctions which necessitated their institution. > \*\* > [@](#): > > **_Originally posted by IzzyR_ > This is incorrect.** Yes, you are right. I consulted Rabbi Reuven Laffer of Jerusalem, _shlita_, and asked: > [@](#): > > I recently expressed the opinion that, in previous generations, _talmidei chachim_ were permitted to violate _gezerot_, as they were capable of making the fine distinctions that necessiated the enactment of _gezerot_ (this is no longer the case). Was I incorrect in so asserting? He replied: > [@](#): > > A decree of the Sages is not something that can just be ignored. According to the Chatam Sofer, Responsa Yoreh Deah 107, every commonly accepted Jewish custom has authority similar to that of a vow, and therefore one would be obligated to follow the custom. To annul a decree the Bet Din (Jewish Court) needs to be, both greater in numbers, and greater in wisdom than the Bet Din that promulgated it. Tradition teaches that that is only a remote possibility. Net position: you are right, and I am wrong. ---
**Author:** ![raisinbread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8491ac/32.png) [@raisinbread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raisinbread)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/36 "2003-01-19T18:46:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Knighted Vorpal Sword \* > **1. Poultry is considered meat, so there are no deli sandwiches with cheese.** But I thought the Jewish law was “You will not drown the calf in its mother’s milk” Chickens and turkeys do not produce milk. > [@](#): > > \*\*\*Originally posted by Knighted Vorpal Sword \* > After all, there are kosher [fake] bacon bits, and I love 'em. \*\* So you can not eat pork but you can eat pig-like products just as long as there is no pork in them? Religions are weird. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/37 "2003-01-19T18:53:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by raisinbread \* > \*\*But I thought the Jewish law was “You will not drown the calf in its mother’s milk” Chickens and turkeys do not produce milk. \*\* You are correct that by strict Biblical law, mixing poultry & milk together is OK. However, the Rabbis enacted a decree forbidding poultry and milk mixtures. The reason for this was because they were afraid that since poultry flesh is similar to “real” meat, one may become confused and actually eat milk & meat together. > [@](#): > > \*\* > [color=“purple”]So you can not eat pork but you can eat pig-like products just as long as there is no pork in them? \*\* In short, God said “Don’t eat pigs.” He didn’t say “Don’t eat anything that tastes like a pig.” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![raisinbread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8491ac/32.png) [@raisinbread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raisinbread)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/38 "2003-01-19T19:02:38Z")
But there’s the rub! First, how does a Jew know that those faux bacon bits _taste_ like a pig? Perhaps they’re the subject of a mild joke by the goyim saying “Oh sure, it tastes just like pork! If you listen closely you can _almost_ hear the oink!” Second, if a Jew is eating faux bacon bits _and_ they love them wouldn’t they be leading themselves down the road of temptation towards the city of sin because one day they’ll just think “Oy, these fake bacon bits are mishegas, I want the real thing” possibly leading them to a mayzid. If the fake stuff tastes so good, how fabulous could the **real** stuff be to the palate and the tummy? ---
**Author:** ![raisinbread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8491ac/32.png) [@raisinbread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raisinbread)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/39 "2003-01-19T19:05:35Z")
One quick (and offtopic) question though. Can a Jew eat something labelled “Helal” and it’d still be rabbinically considered Kosher or are there subtle things that would keep them from even trying something that is helal? Would the same go for a Muslim confronted with something Kosher but _not_ Helal? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827/40 "2003-01-19T19:07:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by raisinbread \* > \*\*But there’s the rub! > First, how does a Jew know that those faux bacon bits _taste_ like a pig? Perhaps they’re the subject of a mild joke by the goyim saying “Oh sure, it tastes just like pork! If you listen closely you can _almost_ hear the oink!” \*\* Well, in most cases, in order for a food to be considered kosher, it must be certified as such by people who watch the production of said food. Since most commercial “bacon-bits” are overseen by rabbinical authorities, one can rely on them to insure that there are no pork products in the mix. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Second, if a Jew is eating faux bacon bits _and_ they love them wouldn’t they be leading themselves down the road of temptation towards the city of sin because one day they’ll just think “Oy, these fake bacon bits are mishegas, I want the real thing” possibly leading them to a mayzid. If the fake stuff tastes so good, how fabulous could the **real** stuff be to the palate and the tummy? \*\* If the Rabbis felt that this was a real danger, they could have enacted legislation against it. The fact of the matter is that they didn’t. Zev Steinhardt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentile-has-question-for-jews-about-dietary-laws-etc/148827.md?page=3)