# Gentle anti-religious instruction in school **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829 "2013-01-11T05:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/21 "2013-01-12T14:35:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Any belief or opinion would. If for example, the belief that democracy is a good form of government was not instilled in children, that would die out in a generation also. But it would only stay dead as long as your outcomes were good enough to make people content with the alternatives. Otherwise you’d see a regression to mob rule as the disenfranchised masses decided to give themselves a say. And at some point, whichever group is in power is going to want to make the cycle of coups more civilised, just so that the inevitable seizure of power is less likely to get them killed. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/22 "2013-01-12T14:43:53Z")
I think the problem with getting a specific critical thinking module introduced on a wide basis in public schools has multiple facets, of which resistance from organized religion and wooists is relatively minor. First, you have to convince educational authorities of the need for this curriculum. There’s a lot of competition for “necessary” coursework and entrenched interests that don’t want to see their time diminished (there’s only so much time available to teach). Add in general sluggishness toward change and anti-science attitudes among ideologues of the right and left wing and you can see the scope of the problem. Personally I believe it is far more important to teach kids how to think rationally than to stuff them with factoids they’ll soon forget, but I am apparently in a minority. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/23 "2013-01-12T15:17:22Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > This would be a great thread to point out that the Texas GOP opposes teaching students objective thinking skills: > > That’s straight out of the education section of the[Texas GOP’s 2012 platform.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html) > > So … you see the scope of the problem we have here. Wow! I’m almost speechless. Thanks for this link! ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/24 "2013-01-12T17:45:28Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Then again maybe this would mean there would no longer be intelligent principled people running religions so intelligent psychopaths would come in and take over, but let’s not dwell too much on that ☹ [sub]underline added[/sub] You mean something like a MegaChurch TV Evangelist? Naaahhh, couldn’t happen. Oh, wait… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![St.Barthgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@St.Barthgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Barthgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/25 "2013-01-12T18:53:03Z")
I NEVER had to salute the flag in school, by the by. i’d promote: Comparative Cultures or something similar from a very young age. The HISTORY of religion promotes Critical Thinking, IMHO… the more you know, the less likely you are to buy it. Science from a young age. Introduction to Philosophical Thinking and Logical Thinking from a young age. Having some sort of oversight for children who are being Home Schooled by Freakazoids would be a Huge Win~ but this is a political Rats’ Nest in the US. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/26 "2013-01-12T19:11:41Z")
Exactly what I was going to put forth. Compose the Book of God, covering Odin, Wakantanka, Mohammed, Buddha, Gaia, Jesus, Pele, Vishnu, etc, instruct the children in religion in a manner that neither advances nor deprecates any one but simply explains each in detail. I would omit the historical vices and depredations of religious organizations to avoid bias (kids would probably infer such things on their own from their history classes), just the immersion in the wealth of the world’s beliefs and religions should enough to engage most children’s logical brain functions and put them off from the idea. Some would, of course, become more steadfast in their beliefs, this is statistically unavoidable, but I _believe_ the net effect would be positive. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/27 "2013-01-12T20:02:48Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Any belief or opinion would. If for example, the belief that democracy is a good form of government was not instilled in children, that would die out in a generation also. No, not at all. You could mind wipe the entire human race, and they would come back to certain values or discoveries through observation and ratonal thinking. If we all lost our memories and started over again, someone would quickly propose the merits of democracy as a just way to govern a society. People would eventually come again to the discovery that the Earth is billions of years old and that evolution is the best explanation for the ecological state of the Earth. On the other hand, if you mind wiped everyone, there would be no Christianity, there’s no reason for there to be. It doesn’t specifically explain anything about the natural world, nor does any evidence point to it. It may be replaced by another religion, but it would be a different arbitrary religion. ---
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/28 "2013-01-13T18:26:23Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > While most people don’t know the exact odds of winning the lottery I think the vast majority of them are aware that a purchased ticket is essentially a pipe dream. So on what basis is purchasing a lottery ticket a sign of idiocy? I’ve never met anyone who viewed the lottery as a solid foundation for their financial security. Everyone I know who plays the lotto just has a bit of fun with a fantasy. It’s no more a waste than buying a ticket to see a movie. > > Maybe we should teach the children that self-righteous douchebaggery in the form of condensation towards others for harmless activities isn’t a good idea. And movie tickets cost MORE than a lottery ticket and even though the stats are against lottery players (I am one, by the way), the old adage is true that “You can’t win if you don’t play.” DO I expect to win? Of course not. But it’s still cheaper than a movie and it does give me a chance to win, no matter how miniscule it might be, and I can always check a DVD out of a library for FREE when it becomes available. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/29 "2013-01-13T19:01:42Z")
In regards to lottery tickets, I’d say that you’re more likely to win if you don’t play. If we have two people, one who buys lottery tickets and one who doesn’t, the one who doesn’t buy the tickets is more likely to end up with more money. Yeah, the person who buys tickets MIGHT hit the lottery, but the odds are very long that the player will end up with less money. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/30 "2013-01-13T21:59:32Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > I’ll keep this broad; without commenting on the merits of this as such, what kinds of anti-religious\* information and general help towards encouraging rational thinking kids could be plausibly introdcued as part of schooling? Let me answer the two questions in reverse order. If we want to promote rational thinking, we should pass a voucher program that allows children, particularly poor children, to escape America’s failing public school system and instead go to private schools. The [evidence has shown overwhelmingly](http://www.edchoice.org/Research/Reports/A-Win-Win-Solution--The-Empirical-Evidence-on-School-Vouchers.aspx) that such programs lead to greater educational success both for the children who switch to private schools and for those who remain in the public schools. As for the first question, if you want to prevent children from becoming religious, keep them trapped in failing public schools, so that they can’t achieve educational success. I’m sure everyone on this message board is aware of the evidence that educational success correlates positively with religiosity–but [just](http://theblogthatwasthursday.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/debunking-dawkins-religion-and-education/) in [case](http://theblogthatwasthursday.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/religion-and-education-lets-hammer-dawkins-some-more/)–so denying children a good education would seem like the clear path to combating religion. Indeed, many of those oppose to religion have fought very hard to make sure that poor children remain trapped in failing public schools, so it seems they’ve already decided to take this approach. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/31 "2013-01-13T22:30:18Z")
Do you feel that it’s a causal relationship there? The more education you receive generally tends to make you more religious? What do you propose the mechanism for such a causal relationship would be? More education makes one better able to see the truth of religion? Does it apply to other religions too? Does being educated make you more likely to pick the wrong (from your perspective) religion also? ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/32 "2013-01-13T22:33:41Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > we should pass a voucher program that allows children, particularly poor children, to escape America’s failing public school system and instead go to private schools. or we could, you know, commit the resources to improve our public schools so they would be less terrible. just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/33 "2013-01-13T23:45:52Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > In regards to lottery tickets, I’d say that you’re more likely to win if you don’t play. If we have two people, one who buys lottery tickets and one who doesn’t, the one who doesn’t buy the tickets is more likely to end up with more money. Yeah, the person who buys tickets MIGHT hit the lottery, but the odds are very long that the player will end up with less money. You’re definition of win is novel but not one I think most would agree with. Sure, the person who “wins” in your example but he’s also “win” if he didn’t buy a ticket to see the circus. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/34 "2013-01-14T00:05:54Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > In regards to lottery tickets, I’d say that you’re more likely to win if you don’t play. If we have two people, one who buys lottery tickets and one who doesn’t, the one who doesn’t buy the tickets is more likely to end up with more money. Yeah, the person who buys tickets MIGHT hit the lottery, but the odds are very long that the player will end up with less money. I recall a mathematician putting it this way. If you buy one ticket that’s an arguably rational choice because for a trivial sum it increases your chances of winning infinitely, from zero to _something_. And arguably a second ticket makes sense because you double your chances for the same small amount. But for anything more than two the diminishing returns means it isn’t worth it; buying 1000 tickets doesn’t significantly increase your odds over buying 2. And the people who really hurt themselves with lotteries aren’t the people who buy one or two tickets, it’s the people who buy a lot of them. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/35 "2013-01-14T00:09:26Z")
I don’t see buying the second one as rational. I think buying 1 ticket is fine - you’re paying a dollar a week (are they still a dollar? no idea) for the ability to fantasize about what you’d do with it. It’s probably worth the entertainment cost. But that second ticket doesn’t buy you any more fantasy power. Any ticket after the first one is idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/36 "2013-01-14T00:13:10Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > While most people don’t know the exact odds of winning the lottery I think the vast majority of them are aware that a purchased ticket is essentially a pipe dream. So on what basis is purchasing a lottery ticket a sign of idiocy? Buying one ticket a month or so is entertainment. Buying a **lot** of tickets, like the guy you had to wait behind for five minutes at the gas-station checkout yesterday, is a sign of idiocy. You can tell it is a sign of idiocy by how quickly most lottery winners tend to end up broke again. You see, people who win the lottery are, statistically, those who play it the most often, that is true; and people who play the lottery a lot are idiots, at least when it comes to money. So when some comes their way, they are soon parted from it. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/37 "2013-01-14T00:17:09Z")
Can we have a cite showing that educated people in the United States aren’t religious? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/38 "2013-01-14T00:25:09Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Can we have a cite showing that educated people in the United States aren’t religious? It’s a complicated picture WRT [religiosity and education.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_education) See also [religiosity and intelligence.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence) ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/39 "2013-01-14T21:31:40Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Do you feel that it’s a causal relationship there? The more education you receive generally tends to make you more religious? My guess would be that causality flows both ways. On the one hand, a good education makes a person a better thinker, more able to apply logic, sort out truth from falsehood, and not take authority at face value, all traits which would lead to increased religiosity. On the other hand, a person who becomes religious is likely to place a greater emphasis on education for himself or herself as well as for family and community. > [@](#): > > Does it apply to other religions too? Does being educated make you more likely to pick the wrong (from your perspective) religion also? I don’t know; I’d be fascinated to see some data on the topic from populations that are predominantly Muslim or followers of some other religion. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829/40 "2013-01-14T21:41:39Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > On the one hand, a good education makes a person a better thinker, more able to apply logic, sort out truth from falsehood, and not take authority at face value, all traits which would lead to increased religiosity. _head asplodes_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentle-anti-religious-instruction-in-school/646829.md?page=3)