# Gentlemen in Training - Current Theories **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 8, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958 "2011-10-08T00:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![surrounded\_by\_literalists](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@surrounded\_by\_literalists](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/surrounded_by_literalists)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/1 "2011-10-08T00:10:15Z")
I have been trying to introduce the concept, and practice, of gentlemanly behavior to my two teenage boys. Some of the rules of being a gentleman have remained the same for over time, such as holding open a door, helping a lady carry things, giving up a seat for ladies or the elderly, ect. But my boys tell me that some rules have gone out of style, and don’t think its necessary to open car doors for ladies, especially their own peer group, remove baseball caps or stocking caps indoors, hold a chair for a lady, rise when a lady enters or leaves the room, etc. I have noticed very few examples in popular media, and even in their own realities, even exist; and that chivalry, if not dead, is at least comatose. So I ask you my fellow Dopers: Do you think that some of the rules of chivalry are no longer necessary? If so, than which ones? Do you think some new rules are needed? Which acts of chivalry do you fee are the MOST important, and why? These boys are 16 years old, and in a public school setting, it is very difficult to follow some of the rules. Rising every time a lady enters and leaves a room will get you slapped into detention. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/2 "2011-10-08T00:23:12Z")
Your boys are right. You’re wrong. If I’d tried going out of my way to open car doors or whatever for the chicks in my group it would have resulted in laughter. And that’s ignoring the sexism. Kudos to your kids. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/3 "2011-10-08T00:26:31Z")
I think you do need to adopt your rules to a modern world. One thing I do is try to use most of the same rules for both men and women. For example, I will hold the door open for anyone. I even used to open the car door for both male and female friends, but now I don’t often give people rides. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/4 "2011-10-08T00:45:25Z")
I think they should _know about_ some of these things involving women. Unless they’re in some very formal setting, though, I don’t think they’d be appropriate. Holding doors is just generally done without regard to sex. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/5 "2011-10-08T01:01:29Z")
I think you could very well teach your kids how to be a gentleman, but make it so that it would apply to how they should treat anyone (regardless of gender). Courtesy doesn’t necessitate that distinction, anyway. Hold the door for anyone who follows. Offer to help anyone you encounter who appears to be struggling with packages, etc. Keep your word to anyone you give it to. Show respect to your superiors _and_ your inferiors . Don’t badmouth anyone behind their back. And so forth. You can frame it as learning to behave as a person with integrity (in general), rather than stressing the gender specificity of certain behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/6 "2011-10-08T01:35:43Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > I think you could very well teach your kids how to be a gentleman, but make it so that it would apply to how they should treat anyone (regardless of gender). Courtesy doesn’t necessitate that distinction, anyway. Hold the door for anyone who follows. Offer to help anyone you encounter who appears to be struggling with packages, etc. Keep your word to anyone you give it to. Show respect to your superiors _and_ your inferiors . Don’t badmouth anyone behind their back. And so forth. > > You can frame it as learning to behave as a person with integrity (in general), rather than stressing the gender specificity of certain behaviors. This is exactly what we are teaching **Ledzepkid**. He’s 13 and we’ve been stressing gentlemanly behaviour (towards all people, no just women) since he could walk. Just recently (he’s 13) I am really seeing him go out of his way to be like this to people. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/7 "2011-10-08T03:19:47Z")
In 2011, a well mannered gentleman (or lady) is someone who treats everyone with respect and is courteous and helpful. That means things like holding open doors for anyone, regardless of sex, and giving up a seat to someone with greater need, like a very pregnant woman or elderly man or woman. A person who stands up merely because a person owning a vagina enters the room or doesn’t trust women to carry their own belongings around is somewhere on the continuum between hopelessly outdated to boorish, but definitely not a gentleman. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/8 "2011-10-08T03:24:39Z")
Why did you wait 16 years to embark on this project? ---
**Author:** ![DadWagonDriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/9 "2011-10-08T03:46:10Z")
> [@surrounded\_by\_literalists](#): > > But my boys tell me that some rules have gone out of style, and don’t think its necessary to open car doors for ladies, especially their own peer group, **remove baseball caps or stocking caps indoors** , hold a chair for a lady, rise when a lady enters or leaves the room, etc. I’m a 30-year-old high school teacher, and I have a word for a boy who believe that wearing his hat indoors is OK: Douche. How the hell did this become OK? The sun isn’t shining in my classroom, and it’s not 40 degrees in here. Take off the effing hat, douche. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/10 "2011-10-08T03:52:30Z")
> [@wmulax93](#): > > I’m a 30-year-old high school teacher, and I have a word for a boy who believe that wearing his hat indoors is OK: > > Douche. > > How the hell did this become OK? The sun isn’t shining in my classroom, and it’s not 40 degrees in here. Take off the effing hat, douche. I’m genuinely curious… Why do you care? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/11 "2011-10-08T04:27:55Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > I think you could very well teach your kids how to be a gentleman, but make it so that it would apply to how they should treat anyone (regardless of gender). Courtesy doesn’t necessitate that distinction, anyway. Hold the door for anyone who follows. Offer to help anyone you encounter who appears to be struggling with packages, etc. Keep your word to anyone you give it to. Show respect to your superiors _and_ your inferiors . Don’t badmouth anyone behind their back. And so forth. > > You can frame it as learning to behave as a person with integrity (in general), rather than stressing the gender specificity of certain behaviors. This, pretty much. When I was younger, and in considerably better shape, we had one of our rare ice storms here. I was walking into a restaurant, and a car dropped off an elderly gentleman at the door. There was still about 20’ of superslick icy pavement for him to navigate, though, and he was unsteady even with his cane. So I offered him my arm. He grinned and accepted, and both of us made it inside safely. He did note that back in his day, he was taught to offer his arm to ladies, and it was nice to have the favor returned. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/12 "2011-10-08T04:54:26Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > I’m genuinely curious… Why do you care? If it’s a hat with a brim, I care because it obscures his face, and watching shifting facial expressions is crucial to effective teaching. If it doesn’t have a brim, I care because making the distinction between “face obscuring” and “non-face obscuring” is just too complicated to deal with in a class of 38. And I say this as a pretty laid-back teacher. Hats and sunglasses are not happening in my room. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/13 "2011-10-08T05:43:13Z")
Some of the practices you mention came about because of practical reasons. Men held the chair for ladies as they sat because the dresses of the time were often voluminous and complicated. That’s also why gentlemen opened car doors and offered a hand to a lady stepping out of a car. Since ladies have the option of trousers, simple skirts, and shorts, it’s understandable that the idea of holding a lady’s chair or opening the car door for her is no longer in common practice. However, wait for homecoming or prom night, when the young lady is wearing something long, formal, and more challenging to manage. At that point, she’ll likely be very grateful her escort is thoughtful enough to open the car door, hand her out, and then hold her chair for her. Other customs are more about showing degrees of courtesy, respect, and regard. All individuals are worthy of courtesy. Most are worthy of respect. A few deserve regard. For men, hats have primarily been practical, providing warmth and protection from the elements. When a gentleman is no longer in the elements, it is no longer appropriate to wear a hat. (Coats, too, should be removed unless the fuss of removing and redressing the coat outweighs the length of the visit.) Few would quibble about a young man leaving his hat on if he were just stepping inside for something, but on entering a home, a gentleman will show courtesy by removing his hat - he is under the roof of his host. To leave his hat on would imply that his host is incapable of protecting him from the elements. If the classroom is held in high esteem - which it ought to be - then it is a mark of respect to remove one’s hat when entering. The classroom is for learning, a higher purpose than fashion or comfort. To refuse to remove one’s hat in a classroom is tantamount to saying that the perfection of your hairstyle or the warmth of your ears is more important than the enrichment of your mind or the efforts of the teacher to help you become a better person. Any man who refuses to remove his hat in a house of worship, a hospital, a courtroom, a library, or a private office is not a gentleman. (And as hats as fashion and the necessity of semi-permanent mounting of the hat to the hair for ladies has fallen out of fashion, I would advocate the same rules for them.) I’m a long time fan of Miss Manners, who knows the history behind the ritual of etiquette and can eloquently explain why what seems to be an arbitrary rule has grounding in pragmatics, compassion, and human sociability. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/14 "2011-10-08T05:54:14Z")
I say drop the “standing when a lady comes to a table” thing because that’s fully outdated. Opening doors works well for anyone. Car doors for women usually goes over well. And take off the hate when entering indoors. It’s a habit that got ingrained in me when I was in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/15 "2011-10-08T11:34:15Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If it’s a hat with a brim, I care because it obscures his face, and watching shifting facial expressions is crucial to effective teaching. If it doesn’t have a brim, I care because making the distinction between “face obscuring” and “non-face obscuring” is just too complicated to deal with in a class of 38. Ok, I’ll agree there are practical reasons in that case. > [@phouka](#): > > Few would quibble about a young man leaving his hat on if he were just stepping inside for something, but on entering a home, a gentleman will show courtesy by removing his hat - he is under the roof of his host. To leave his hat on would imply that his host is incapable of protecting him from the elements. If the classroom is held in high esteem - which it ought to be - then it is a mark of respect to remove one’s hat when entering. The classroom is for learning, a higher purpose than fashion or comfort. To refuse to remove one’s hat in a classroom is tantamount to saying that the perfection of your hairstyle or the warmth of your ears is more important than the enrichment of your mind or the efforts of the teacher to help you become a better person. But these rules regarding hats are _completely_ arbitrary. Removing your hat because it conveys respect or courtesy is only true because people have been taught that removing your hat conveys respect or courtesy. It’s circular logic. Hypothetically, you could just as easy train people that _leaving_ their hat on indoors conveys respect and courtesy, and come up with some rationale for doing so: perhaps it implies that the wearer feels the host deserves to see the person in their full dress regalia, rather than in a more relaxed and less splendid version. I’m all for politeness and helping people out when they need help. I’ll gladly hold the door or assist someone with packages, whether or not they’re male of female. But removing my hat (and I say this as someone who virtually _never_ wears hats) because it’s “the thing gentlemen do” is rather silly. Understand, I’m just using hats here as an example; there are a lot of customs to show respect that are completely arbitrary and learned behaviors that are outdated. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/16 "2011-10-08T14:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Any man who refuses to remove his hat in a house of worship, a hospital, a courtroom, a library, or a private office is not a gentleman. (And as hats as fashion and the necessity of semi-permanent mounting of the hat to the hair for ladies has fallen out of fashion, I would advocate the same rules for them.) I usually wear a brown cowboy hat when I go out. It’s quite effective as a sunshade, and can also shield me from light rainfall. This hat also has some style, as I’ve put feathers and beads on it and a decorative owl brooch. I take it off when I’m inside, though, because I don’t use hatpins. If it’s a windy day, I use the strings on the hat to keep it on my head. Basically, when I’m outside, I wear the hat. When I’m inside, and I set my purse and walking stick down, the hat comes off and is placed with them. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/17 "2011-10-08T15:24:29Z")
> [@wmulax93](#): > > I’m a 30-year-old high school teacher, and I have a word for a boy who believe that wearing his hat indoors is OK: > > Douche. > > How the hell did this become OK? The sun isn’t shining in my classroom, and it’s not 40 degrees in here. Take off the effing hat, douche. A douche, really? I was a hat wearer in high school and it was allowed by the school that wearing hats in class was OK. So I often had a very poor opinion of a teacher who thought their classroom was so extra special that I had to make my hat off when I stepped inside. Of course, this could stem from the fact that there were a few teachers in Jr. High who seemed absolutely gleeful to take your hat at the first instance of seeing it in a “no hat zone.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/18 "2011-10-08T17:43:15Z")
> [@surrounded\_by\_literalists](#): > > But my boys tell me that some rules have gone out of style, and don’t think its necessary to open car doors for ladies, especially their own peer group, remove baseball caps or stocking caps indoors, hold a chair for a lady, rise when a lady enters or leaves the room, etc. They don’t do these things because the other person is a lady; they do them because they’re gentlemen. And manners are very location and culture specific: what’s fine in one place will get you marked as a heel in another. They should open car doors and hold chairs for other people who need it regardless of gender. Hats are definitely off indoors. And they should only rise in social occasions: you don’t rise in class for a female pupil, but you do rise at the start of the lesson for the teacher; you don’t rise when the maid or valet enters the room but you do when a guest of either gender does. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/19 "2011-10-08T18:12:33Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > However, wait for homecoming or prom night, when the young lady is wearing something long, formal, and more challenging to manage. At that point, she’ll likely be very grateful her escort is thoughtful enough to open the car door, hand her out, and then hold her chair for her. So you’re saying that intentionally parking so that my date had to get out in the bushes was tacky? 😃 (We had a relationship based on mutual teasing, mocking, and practical jokes. This was quite in character.) ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/20 "2011-10-08T18:44:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > They should open car doors and hold chairs for other people who need it regardless of gender. Hats are definitely off indoors. And they should only rise in social occasions: you don’t rise in class for a female pupil, but you do rise at the start of the lesson for the teacher; you don’t rise when the maid or valet enters the room but you do when a guest of either gender does. I think any students that rose at their teacher’s entrance would be viewed as troublemakers. Plus, isn’t the teacher already there most of the time? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958.md?page=2)