# Gentlemen in Training - Current Theories **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 8, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958 "2011-10-08T00:10:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![surrounded\_by\_literalists](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8baadc/32.png) [@surrounded\_by\_literalists](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/surrounded_by_literalists)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/21 "2011-10-08T18:46:35Z")
I appreciate all the input. > [@twickster](#): > > Why did you wait 16 years to embark on this project? This isn’t a new project. But at 16, I’m getting the standard adolescent response. You know, the kind where said teenager questions anything and everything required of him. One of my literalist boys in particular is painfully fond of the the never ending, circular argument. Of course, I have tried to teach them to practice courtesy to all, not just women. However, recently girls have become a tad more fascinating than they used to be. Since these guys have been largely in the company of other boys, and some of their rougher edges have become more pronounced. Guys can endlessly find humor in making armpit noises, while girls…not so much. Unfortunately, I have noticed that sometimes, as my sons make an effort to be courteous to strangers, they are looked at with fear, suspiscion, and sometimes hostility. I can understand the distrust, yet it saddens me. Courtesy, and gentlemanly behavior is meant to put people at ease, not make them fearful. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/22 "2011-10-08T18:57:43Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > But these rules regarding hats are _completely_ arbitrary. Removing your hat because it conveys respect or courtesy is only true because people have been taught that removing your hat conveys respect or courtesy. It’s circular logic. Hypothetically, you could just as easy train people that _leaving_ their hat on indoors conveys respect and courtesy, and come up with some rationale for doing so: perhaps it implies that the wearer feels the host deserves to see the person in their full dress regalia, rather than in a more relaxed and less splendid version. > > I’m all for politeness and helping people out when they need help. I’ll gladly hold the door or assist someone with packages, whether or not they’re male of female. But removing my hat (and I say this as someone who virtually _never_ wears hats) because it’s “the thing gentlemen do” is rather silly. Understand, I’m just using hats here as an example; there are a lot of customs to show respect that are completely arbitrary and learned behaviors that are outdated. Do you feel the same way about swearing/cursing in public? Even if the words are no the big ones like fuck and cockmouth but things like “I’m going to take a dump ladies. I’ll be right back!” You could train people that telling their hosts that they need to go take a dump is respectful too. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/23 "2011-10-08T19:56:44Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I think any students that rose at their teacher’s entrance would be viewed as troublemakers. We all did it from age 13, maybe earlier. > [@](#): > > Plus, isn’t the teacher already there most of the time? Not necessarily. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/24 "2011-10-08T20:26:46Z")
Boy, I don’t know if it’s correct to eschew the old manners. I don’t go out of my way to “gallantly” hold a door for some skirt, but I’ll hold the door for anyone (not necessarily let them go first). I learned it (not that particular modern formation) from some old school parents. More stuff like, going to “prom,” do blah blah and don’t rape the shit out of her in your Camaro, if’n you please. Gentlemanly to me just means good manners – obviously, please, thank you, may I, permit me, but also making introductions when appropriate. I’m a pretty grizzly guy, with my extra 30 lbs, but it doesn’t matter as much as being polite. I think instead of “gentleman,” you want to think of “polite man.” Those are ways of dealing that will never go out of style, I guess. The latter is more about being considerate and respectful of your fellow human, not following a rule book. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/25 "2011-10-08T20:30:32Z")
I always allow ladies to exit the elevator before me, and they always seem appreciative. I have taught my 10 year old son to do the same, and when I see him do it without prompting, it makes me proud. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/26 "2011-10-08T20:41:21Z")
My son’s school has a thing where they teach kids how to be ‘gentlemen’ and ‘ladies’. Most of time, when being dismissed from lunch, the ‘ladies’ leave first. Boys are taught to hold the door open. It’s cute, really, to see a seven year old open the door for someone’s mom and say, “After you.” My son moved the chair so I could ‘sit’ and he tried to scoot me in when I visited for lunch the first time. The teachers were like, “What a gentleman!” (they hadn’t started the unit yet - it was the first week of school). I don’t mind it. I teach my son to do the same things. (Not the dining/chair thing - he must’ve seen that somewhere.) I notice that many of my male students do the same - immigrants moreso than others, but I’d say roughly 80 per cent of all Hispanic males do it in my class. There’s nothing wrong with it. I appreciate it when a guy opens the car door for me. It’s something my dad did and it just stuck. If a guy can’t open my door because he’s so stuck on himself because he finds it ‘dated’ and ‘unfair’, well, he’s not worth a second date. As far as rising when a woman enters - that one I don’t care for. Where I come from, women wore hats to synagogue or church, so there’s no complaint there! Not wearing a hat/covering would be rude. So really, it’s about cultural expectations. I wore a rather large one today. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/27 "2011-10-08T20:43:30Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > If the classroom is held in high esteem - which it ought to be - then it is a mark of respect to remove one’s hat when entering. The classroom is for learning, a higher purpose than fashion or comfort. To refuse to remove one’s hat in a classroom is tantamount to saying that the perfection of your hairstyle or the warmth of your ears is more important than the enrichment of your mind or the efforts of the teacher to help you become a better person. > > Any man who refuses to remove his hat in a house of worship, a hospital, a courtroom, a library, or a private office is not a gentleman. (And as hats as fashion and the necessity of semi-permanent mounting of the hat to the hair for ladies has fallen out of fashion, I would advocate the same rules for them.) > > I’m a long time fan of Miss Manners, who knows the history behind the ritual of etiquette and can eloquently explain why what seems to be an arbitrary rule has grounding in pragmatics, compassion, and human sociability. It would be tantamount to saying that fashion and comfort are more important than mind enrichment and the efforts of the teacher if the former were mutually exclusive with the latter. Since they’re not mutually exclusive, it is not tantamount to saying that. How did you come up with the list of house of worship, hospital, courtroom, library and private office? Why does the fact that hats as fashion have fallen out of fashion mean that women should remove their hats just as men do? I don’t get that last one: You say that not removing your hat is tantamount to saying that fashion is more important than the purpose of the place you’re in and the efforts of people who work there (such as a classroom). Yet you say that because hats as fashion are little used by women today, they too should remove their hats. I thought that fashion wasn’t supposed to be a reason for someone to wear a hat in An Important Place because doing so is tantamount to saying that fashion is more important than the purpose of the place and the efforts of people who work there. In other words, why was fashion an acceptable reason to wear hats indoors in the past but not today? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/28 "2011-10-08T20:52:52Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with it. I appreciate it when a guy opens the car door for me. It’s something my dad did and it just stuck. If a guy can’t open my door because he’s so stuck on himself because he finds it ‘dated’ and ‘unfair’, well, he’s not worth a second date. > > As far as rising when a woman enters - that one I don’t care for. The first one is a must. The second one you don’t care for. Is there some principle you use to determine which traditional gender roles and behaviors should be kept or dismissed? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/29 "2011-10-08T21:23:45Z")
My objection to a lot of the gender-specific rules is that they require the woman to be deliberately helpless. It’s not the opening a door I find objectionable: it’s the idea that I if I am on a trajectory to get to the door first, I am supposed to stop and wait. It’s not that I mind having my car door opened, it’s that I feel like a douche sitting there waiting for someone to walk around and open it. I also hate that there’s no way to return the favor: I don’t mind having help carrying something, but I also enjoy being helpful, and so a system where I am not allowed to offer to help–not even with light things–bothers me. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/30 "2011-10-08T21:30:35Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > The first one is a must. The second one you don’t care for. Is there some principle you use to determine which traditional gender roles and behaviors should be kept or dismissed? I guess it has to do with how I was raised and where I was raised. You do rise when a new person joins your dinner table (that’s not the same as ‘entering a room’, though). If a man rose when I entered the room to say hello, I certainly wouldn’t be offended. We also rise when a judge enters the courtroom or a cantor walks by during services or a woman walks down the wedding isle. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with showing respect. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/31 "2011-10-08T21:31:33Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > My objection to a lot of the gender-specific rules is that they require the woman to be deliberately helpless. It’s not the opening a door I find objectionable: it’s the idea that I if I am on a trajectory to get to the door first, I am supposed to stop and wait. It’s not that I mind having my car door opened, it’s that I feel like a douche sitting there waiting for someone to walk around and open it. I also hate that there’s no way to return the favor: I don’t mind having help carrying something, but I also enjoy being helpful, and so a system where I am not allowed to offer to help–not even with light things–bothers me. Sure you can help Manda, you just have to preserve your Honor; It’s what a lady does. Surely the women in this thread who have been going on about gentlemanly behavior have made sure to act in a lady-like way themselves, as defined by traditional gender roles. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/32 "2011-10-08T21:32:17Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > My objection to a lot of the gender-specific rules is that they require the woman to be deliberately helpless. It’s not the opening a door I find objectionable: it’s the idea that I if I am on a trajectory to get to the door first, I am supposed to stop and wait. It’s not that I mind having my car door opened, it’s that I feel like a douche sitting there waiting for someone to walk around and open it. I also hate that there’s no way to return the favor: I don’t mind having help carrying something, but I also enjoy being helpful, and so a system where I am not allowed to offer to help–not even with light things–bothers me. When you are married with children or cooking a holiday meal, you’ll find ways to compensate. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/33 "2011-10-08T21:36:00Z")
“Don’t be a jerk” pretty much covers it. Really this is just a concentrated version of do unto others. However, if we must have good list for modern life… A gentlemen holds the door in general, not just for ladies. He makes some effort to understand the company he is in and speak and act appropriately. He should have _basic_ table manners. He uses and expects the use of please, thank you, etc. He shows a basic level of kindness and respect to people until they offer him a \*reason \*to be insulted. He is respectful of women. He makes an effort to be kind to children and companion animals, even if he finds them repulsive. A gentleman is prudent in what personal information he shares online. He does not demand total control of the entertainment media and shares. He contributes to the household in an equal measure with his partner, spouse, or roommates. A gentleman knows his limit with alcohol and does not exceed it in mixed company. He does not drive drunk. He makes an effort to be informed about the news or is able to discuss different topics in addition to his pet interests. He assists those in need if he is able to, or offers the use of his phone if he is clueless. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/34 "2011-10-08T22:21:55Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > In 2011, a well mannered gentleman (or lady) is someone who treats everyone with respect and is courteous and helpful. Geeze, you’re more out of it than the OP. Showing courtesy and respect to anyone but very old people is silly today. All that matters is that you show the proper deference to anyone who looks like he could hand you your ass. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/35 "2011-10-08T22:39:55Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I guess it has to do with how I was raised and where I was raised. You do rise when a new person joins your dinner table (that’s not the same as ‘entering a room’, though). If a man rose when I entered the room to say hello, I certainly wouldn’t be offended. > > We also rise when a judge enters the courtroom or a cantor walks by during services or a woman walks down the wedding isle. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with showing respect. these discussions always seem to boil down to this. “The way things were when I was growing up are the way they should always be.” ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/36 "2011-10-08T22:58:08Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > In other words, why was fashion an acceptable reason to wear hats indoors in the past but not today? I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but in the past, women would have been using hatpins to secure the hat to their heads, as many of these hats were a bit more decorative than designed to be easily worn. [This hat](http://sydneysvintageclothing.com/store/p/7595-Vintage_40s_Golden_Yellow_Wool_Netting_Womens_Hat.html) would be more likely to fall off if not pinned to the wearer’s hair than [this hat](http://sydneysvintageclothing.com/store/p/10128-Vintage_60s_Navy_Blue_Straw_Huge_Wide_Brim_Ladies_Hat.html). In situations where one would have to unpin one’s hat and disassemble the hair-hat ensemble, asking a woman to remove her hat would be akin to asking her to disrobe in any other fashion beyond removing her coat. Since men’s hats were not designed in a manner that didn’t facilitate easy wearing and removal, they were required to remove their hat for a wide number of situations, including entering a building. As for appropriate behavior, I got a lot of instruction as a female as to what was appropriate for me to do and what I should expect of a polite man. This did not necessarily include opening doors for me and pushing in my chair, but it did include things like polite topics of conversation, appropriate ways to sit in chairs and on the floor, greetings and introduction, polite manners of address based on rank/relationship, etc. Knowing how to have polite conversations with strangers and making folks feel at ease is a big part of manners, regardless of what system is being used. ---
**Author:** ![palacheck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e57/32.png) [@palacheck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palacheck)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/37 "2011-10-08T23:00:25Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > If a guy can’t open my door because he’s so stuck on himself because he finds it ‘dated’ and ‘unfair’, well, he’s not worth a second date. So according to some of you a guy is a selfish douche if he doesn’t open the door for a woman and a sexist douche if he does? Why isn’t a woman that expects the door to be held for her considered a sexist douche? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/38 "2011-10-08T23:41:11Z")
> [@nashiitashii](#): > > I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but in the past, women would have been using hatpins to secure the hat to their heads, as many of these hats were a bit more decorative than designed to be easily worn. [This hat](http://sydneysvintageclothing.com/store/p/7595-Vintage_40s_Golden_Yellow_Wool_Netting_Womens_Hat.html) would be more likely to fall off if not pinned to the wearer’s hair than [this hat](http://sydneysvintageclothing.com/store/p/10128-Vintage_60s_Navy_Blue_Straw_Huge_Wide_Brim_Ladies_Hat.html). In situations where one would have to unpin one’s hat and disassemble the hair-hat ensemble, asking a woman to remove her hat would be akin to asking her to disrobe in any other fashion beyond removing her coat. Since men’s hats were not designed in a manner that didn’t facilitate easy wearing and removal, they were required to remove their hat for a wide number of situations, including entering a building. > > As for appropriate behavior, I got a lot of instruction as a female as to what was appropriate for me to do and what I should expect of a polite man. This did not necessarily include opening doors for me and pushing in my chair, but it did include things like polite topics of conversation, appropriate ways to sit in chairs and on the floor, greetings and introduction, polite manners of address based on rank/relationship, etc. Knowing how to have polite conversations with strangers and making folks feel at ease is a big part of manners, regardless of what system is being used. Nashii, Thanks, I was not aware of the details. When Phouka said “And as hats as fashion and the necessity of semi-permanent mounting of the hat to the hair for ladies has fallen out of fashion”, I only talked about the fashion aspect because the semi-permanent mounting of a hat would be a good reason to let women keep their hats on. The fashion aspect though, not so much, especially when the previous paragraph explicitly says that fashion isn’t a justification to keep a hat on. I agree with your second paragraph although I’m not big on forms of adress based on rank, except when hierarchy is crucial to the functioning of a system (e.g.: the military, courts). ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/39 "2011-10-09T00:08:52Z")
> [@palacheck](#): > > So according to some of you a guy is a selfish douche if he doesn’t open the door for a woman and a sexist douche if he does? > > Why isn’t a woman that expects the door to be held for her considered a sexist douche? Any woman who held such contrary opinions would not be a superb wielder of the dialectic, but just plain a cunt. Glad I know none or, at best, few, of them. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958/40 "2011-10-09T00:34:09Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > these discussions always seem to boil down to this. “The way things were when I was growing up are the way they should always be.” Tell me about it. I wasn’t seriously advocating a normless Thunderdome state of post-etiquette upthread, but could it be much worse than a constant enforcement of morés that are a generation out of date? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentlemen-in-training-current-theories/598958.md?page=3)