# Gentrification is bad, 'mmkay. But what happens to **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2015, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005 "2015-10-09T07:07:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/21 "2015-10-09T14:55:44Z")
The Atlantic Cities blog has a lot of interesting articles on gentrification. The blurbs below are from a very long article and a fascinating read. One finding is that the pace of gentrification is a factor in how disruptive it is. > [@](#): > > But exactly how does this dynamic play out, and is displacement inevitable? A new comprehensive review of what we know about gentrification sheds much needed light on this heated issue. The review, by researchers at the University of California Berkeley and UCLA and published by the Federal Reserve of San Francisco, takes a close look at studies of gentrification and displacement conducted over the past several decades. (I wrote about the review’s insights on how public investment shapes gentrification last week). It helps us better understand several questions related to gentrification and displacement: Just how extensive is displacement, exactly what kinds of people are displaced, and how do people and groups fare after they leave gentrifying neighborhoods? > > [snip] > > Counterintuitively, several studies have even found that gentrification can in some cases reduce displacement. Neighborhood improvements like bars, restaurants, waterfronts, or extended transit can and sometimes do encourage less advantaged households to stay put in the face of gentrification. A 2006 study found that displacement accounted for only 6 to 10 percent of all moves in New York City due to housing expenses, landlord harassment, or displacement by private action (e.g. condo conversion) between 1989 and 2002. A 2011 study concluded that neighborhood income gains did not significantly predict household exit rates. What did predict outmigration was age, minority status, selective entry and exit, and renting as opposed to buying. [http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/09/the-complicated-link-between-gentrification-and-displacement/404161/](http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/09/the-complicated-link-between-gentrification-and-displacement/404161/) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/22 "2015-10-09T15:05:48Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > study cause and effect. poverty begets crime, not vice versa. I would argue the opposite-crime causes poverty. When parents cannot allow their children to play outside (for fear of stray bullets), then you have a situation that cises poor education and poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/23 "2015-10-09T15:12:19Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > I do not know what this sentence means. It means that, from what you write, that you give the strong impression that you don’t know anything about Venice. And I agree. Venice was built in 1905 as a purely resort community. It had many more canals than it does now. it had amusement parks (plural). It got annexed to LA in 1925. It deteriorated very badly over the years, and was “gentrified” in the 50s when the Beats and the hipsters of their day moved in. You could say that it had an “influx[es] of local artists looking for a cheap place to live, giving the neighbourhood a bohemian flair”. It deteriorated again, so that by the time I lived there in the 80s, it was a mixed mess. There were parts that were “hip”, with neat old houses, clean streets, nice shops, full of beach bums, old hippies, and people who had owned their homes forever, and parts that you wouldn’t walk though after dark, full of gangs and drug dealers (and remember, the town is only 3 sq miles). If it is being “gentrified” again, well, that’s a good thing. It is a nice place, and it would be even nicer if you felt safe living there. > [@Claverhouse](#): > > Gentrification may make things safer, as in City of the Dead safer, but it doesn’t make things prettier. It also appears you don’t know anything about gentrification, either. Gentrification is not “yuppification”. Plus, you think abandoned houses and empty warehouses are “pretty”? ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/24 "2015-10-09T15:27:55Z")
Neighborhoods are always going through changes based upon demographic and income changes. I can see that on the street where I grew up. [ul] [li]When I was a kid the neighborhood was full of children, and I had many friends on the street.[/li] [li]We all grew up and moved out to college or what not and the parents stayed behind. When I was older a few years out of college I recall many times my parents commenting that there were no longer kids in the neighborhood[/li] [li]The parents moved out to smaller houses, retirement homes, or died as my parents did. Then the houses got bought up by younger folks. My nephew took over my parents place, and they have two kids 5 and 3.[/li] [li]Now the neighborhood is full of kids again.[/li][/ul] Nothing stays the same in this world. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/25 "2015-10-09T15:30:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why cant social engineers just allow people to move and live where they want and avoid the racial terms? Because decisions have to be made that affect where people live. So we scatter low income housing in low concentrations throughout the city, or do we concentrate it in one place? When planning subway routes, do we listen when rich neighborhoods ask us not to put stops there? Where do we build schools? Grocery stores? What kinds of developments- malls? Strip malls? Mixed use? Big box! Where do we plan thoroughfares? How we zone school districts? There are thousands of decisions that city planners HAVE to make. And these decisions can create lively neighborhoods or blighted ones. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/26 "2015-10-09T15:34:45Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > It means that, from what you write, that you give the strong impression that you don’t know anything about Venice. And I agree. He wrote: _Neither the Washington Post nor you know little about Venice Beach._ That does not make grammatical sense. > [@](#): > > Venice was built in 1905 as a purely resort community. It had many more canals than it does now. it had amusement parks (plural). > > It got annexed to LA in 1925. It deteriorated very badly over the years, and was “gentrified” in the 50s when the Beats and the hipsters of their day moved in. You could say that it had an “influx[es] of local artists looking for a cheap place to live, giving the neighbourhood a bohemian flair”. > > It deteriorated again, so that by the time I lived there in the 80s, it was a mixed mess. There were parts that were “hip”, with neat old houses, clean streets, nice shops, full of beach bums, old hippies, and people who had owned their homes forever, and parts that you wouldn’t walk though after dark, full of gangs and drug dealers (and remember, the town is only 3 sq miles). > > If it is being “gentrified” again, well, that’s a good thing. It is a nice place, and it would be even nicer if you felt safe living there. Thanks for the history lesson. > [@](#): > > It also appears you don’t know anything about gentrification, either. Gentrification is not “yuppification”. Plus, you think abandoned houses and empty warehouses are “pretty”? Actually yes. The Pleasure of Ruins and all that. A damn sight prettier than old buildings pulled down and shiny new ones put up like little boxes: just to make developers rich. The past can be awful, but equally so the dead eyes of consumerism and conformity. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/27 "2015-10-09T15:37:49Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > I do not know what this sentence means. > > Anyway, I wrote about Venice Beach long ago. > > Not really. The church near me was _rebuilt_ in the 14th century. > > Who cares ? Homeless have to live somewhere. Gentrification may make things safer, as in City of the Dead safer, but it doesn’t make things prettier. I was on my phone sorry being unclear. But the article claimed that one company changed the neighborhood and thats just silly. The homeless in Venice are young high and dangerous and the police wont enforce laws on the book. They like hanging at the beach but they make it hard for businesses to operate with aggressive panhandling and outright theft. Or what **Just Asking Questions** wrote much more elegantly. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/28 "2015-10-09T15:45:08Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Actually yes. The Pleasure of Ruins and all that. A damn sight prettier than old buildings pulled down and shiny new ones put up like little boxes: just to make developers rich. The past can be awful, but equally so the dead eyes of consumerism and conformity. You are ignoring a very large problem that in California specific: earthquake readiness. Older buildings have to be retrofitted to make them earthquake safe and thats really expensive. Some older unique buildings are retrofitted. Another issue is that older buildings dont have modern necessities like sufficient electrical wiring. Im all for keeping the old. Here is Los Angeles we have lost so much of our architectural legacy. But it has to be balanced with a modern reality. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/29 "2015-10-09T16:21:41Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Actually yes. The Pleasure of Ruins and all that. A damn sight prettier than old buildings pulled down and shiny new ones put up like little boxes: just to make developers rich. The past can be awful, but equally so the dead eyes of consumerism and conformity. What you are described is not what gentrification normally is. A very large fraction of gentrification is taking older buildings, including abandoned factories, and re-purposing them for lofts, apartments, studios, business, and stores. The intention is to keep the beauty of the old while removing the decaying eyesore and allowing it to be useful again. There are no pretty abandoned decayed factory buildings. There are many that can be saved. Gentrification is a word that gets thrown around a lot and has - like political incorrectness - become a totally meaningless term used to mean nothing more than “I don’t like that.” Washington DC is often given as an example of true gentrification. A couple of decades ago people started to move into poorer neighborhoods. They braved the crime and the poor services and lack of stores. They became part of the neighborhood. They put money into their buildings and started stores and services and neighborhood organizations. Gradually - and twenty years is a long, long time to live in a dangerous neighborhood - others joined them, helping to raise the safety and usefulness and beauty of entire areas. Were those neighborhoods mostly African-American, the legacy of American apartheid? Yes. And the newcomers were mostly white. But the neighborhoods today are far more mixed, integrated in every sense, than most urban areas in America. That should be termed a success. Seattle, on the other hand, has had problems with newcomers moving onto the tiny lots on favored side streets, like the area near the farmer’s market, tearing down the tiny older house and building a three- or four-story building that fills the lot to its edges. This is disruptive and resented. It is not, however, gentrification. Gentrification was a response to the horrors of late 50s-early 60s urban renewal. I lived in the ghetto then. A few years later the entire area was razed. A set of low-density, nice garden apartments were built on the area that once was a densely-populated, business-laden coherent neighborhood. Today’s area is pleasant to drive through, but has almost no stores or services, because everything is too spread out to make them economically viable to walk to. Could that area have been gentrified? Nobody knows, but the possibilities of what was vastly overshadow the realities of what is. Stop using gentrification as one single thing that’s the same everywhere. Stop using it as a synonym for racism and flaunting of wealth. Stop defining gentrification by its worst examples, especially if those aren’t gentrification at all. And stop using terms like The Pleasure of Ruins unless you live next door to an abandoned factory. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/30 "2015-10-09T16:40:58Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I would argue the opposite-crime causes poverty. When parents cannot allow their children to play outside (for fear of stray bullets), then you have a situation that cises poor education and poverty. poverty leads people to desperation, enough where they turn to illegal activity to ensure their needs are met. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/31 "2015-10-09T16:43:11Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > Just to complicate the equation… not making an across-the-board generalization… where I live, when one single-family home is knocked down, they build 8 condos. Wait, are you talking a condo with 8 units in it? Wouldnt that have to be at least 3 stories tall? And where is that? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/32 "2015-10-09T16:49:21Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > Neighborhoods are always going through changes based upon demographic and income changes. I can see that on the street where I grew up. > > [ul] > [li]When I was a kid the neighborhood was full of children, and I had many friends on the street.[/li] > [li]We all grew up and moved out to college or what not and the parents stayed behind. When I was older a few years out of college I recall many times my parents commenting that there were no longer kids in the neighborhood[/li] > [li]The parents moved out to smaller houses, retirement homes, or died as my parents did. Then the houses got bought up by younger folks. My nephew took over my parents place, and they have two kids 5 and 3.[/li] > [li]Now the neighborhood is full of kids again.[/li][/ul] > > Nothing stays the same in this world. That is exactly what is happening in my neighborhood. The elderly are moving out and young families moving in. Thing is they closed many elementary schools years ago because the kids were not there anymore and now that they are returning, the schools are overcrowded. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/33 "2015-10-09T17:16:21Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Seattle, on the other hand, has had problems with newcomers moving onto the tiny lots on favored side streets, like the area near the farmer’s market, tearing down the tiny older house and building a three- or four-story building that fills the lot to its edges. This is disruptive and resented. It is not, however, gentrification. What a bizarre summary of Seattle. Where did you get this from? A better summary would be this: Seattle is growing by leaps and bounds, largely but not wholely due to Amazon and the tech scene. Large numbers of highly paid non-locals are looking for places to live, and many of them are looking in neighborhoods near downtown. Those neighborhoods either have no history of mass residentialization, such as South Lake Union, or have a traditional residential population of hipppies, artists, and gays, such as Capitol Hill. Incredible amounts of housing are being built (mostly apartment buildings), but not fast enough, so rents are going through the roof. The housing is being concentrated in ‘urban villages’, including but not limited to the aforementioned neighborhoods. The 60+% of the city’s land area that is dedicated to single-family houses is not absorbing much growth at all, and its residents are _very_ resistant to changing zoning rules to allowing any growth (the proposed zoning changes would have allowed duplexes and triplexes, along with accessory dwelling units, not large apartment/condo buildings.) The city is also fighting to improve mobility, through a combination of new light rail lines and improved bus service, along with improvements to biking and walking. Again, it takes time to do those things, and mobility is a disaster now for many of the city’s residents. All of these changes are fostering resentment, though a substantial portion of the city’s population are urbanists who are optimistic about a future denser, more walkable, more transit-oriented city. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/34 "2015-10-09T17:17:49Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Wait, are you talking a condo with 8 units in it? Wouldnt that have to be at least 3 stories tall? And where is that? Cambridge, MA. Four stories, two units per floor. Similarly, the building I live in used to have a single-family home, and now has 6 condos. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/35 "2015-10-09T17:29:18Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > What a bizarre summary of Seattle. Where did you get this from? From going there and seeing the controversy prominently reported. It’s not a summary of Seattle or even the one signal example of overall Seattle problems. I meant it an example of false gentrification, one that is apparently similar to what ratatoskK refers to in Cambridge. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/36 "2015-10-09T17:38:47Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > It’s a very complex phenomenon. One aspect that interests me is the influence of public transport. > > White-flight and suburban sprawl were largely enabled (and driven) by car culture. That may be true in America but probably not in most European cities. In London, using a car is prohibitively expensive (congestion charges, parking charges, traffic) so most workers commute by public transport. This in turn is hugely overcrowded and fairly expensive but reasonably efficient. Gentrification here is usually at the expense (but often for the profit) of the poor white population. Incomers are from every race and origin you can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/37 "2015-10-09T17:57:51Z")
Since this question is now more general than the issue of where new residents of gentrifying areas come from, let’s move it to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/38 "2015-10-09T18:00:25Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Not really. The church near me was _rebuilt_ in the 14th century. yes, we know. Americans think 100 years is “old,” Europeans think 100 miles is “far.” ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/39 "2015-10-09T19:11:48Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > From going there and seeing the controversy prominently reported. All I have is living here for decades and closely following much of the development process. And what you described is a tiny, tiny part of what’s changing in Seattle. > [@](#): > > It’s not a summary of Seattle or even the one signal example of overall Seattle problems. I meant it an example of false gentrification, one that is apparently similar to what ratatoskK refers to in Cambridge. Is your point that it’s not “true” gentrification because it largely involves the construction of new buildings, rather than repurposing of old ones? Because that seems like an oddly narrow definition of gentrification. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005/40 "2015-10-09T19:53:45Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > Cambridge, MA. Four stories, two units per floor. Similarly, the building I live in used to have a single-family home, and now has 6 condos. How did I know this would be the answer. I see more and more of these going up every week. There have been some doozies along Mass Ave, with small commercial lots turning into 12 unit condos. Somerville gets this a lot too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad-mmkay-but-what-happens-to/734005.md?page=3)