# Gentrification is bad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935 "2018-01-05T18:34:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/41 "2018-01-05T21:53:54Z")
I have a hard time keeping track of whether I’m not supposed to move out of certain neighborhoods or not move into them. Today it sounds like moving in is the bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/42 "2018-01-05T22:15:18Z")
> [@Nadnerb](#): > > Here’s what happens by pricing out. Say someone lives in a low rent apartment, their rent could skyrocket and they no longer can afford it. One of the worst things about gentrification, is that low rent housing is torn down and replaced with condos. The long time residents in the end have difficulty relocating. This isn’t an argument against gentrification; it’s a case for developing mixed income housing such that low income residents have options beyond being pushed into a slum. Mixed income and mixed use housing which encourages local economic development and use of public transit is basically the planform for most urban revitalization efforts, but there has to be enough improvement to justify the investment over some moderate term. No one wants to pay to rebuild a blighted area only for it to fall apart again because it isn’t valuable enough to bring in revenue or attract unsubsidized commercial development. > [@Nadnerb](#): > > Their are viable alternatives to gentrification. We could consider revitalization, which could restore a run down neighborhood to more desirable condition, but the neighborhood would remain affordable and the long time residents would stay. Who pays the bill for this? As others have noted, neighborhoods become ripe for gentrification because the area has become run down and property values have dropped, generally because residents either have not maintained housing quality or because the demographic has aged with fewer children and residents on fixed incomes. Declining property values means that the neighborhood is a net loss for the municipality or county that has to support it, which is how cities go into bankruptcy. (Well, that and building unnecessary stadiums and paying massive pensions.) Revitalization has to include raising property taxes, which means attracting property owners who can afford the higher taxes, which means replacing housing and public assets that are not appealing to potental property owners. And frankly, most areas undergoing gentrification are typically areas that were never very affluent to begin with; they’re middle or lower income housing, often quickly built to styles and standards not acceptible to modern homeowners and lacking amenities that are expected in modern housing. Insisting that we should just “revitalize” neighborhoods without raising property values or allowing new owners to rebuild with more modern properties is like saying we shouldn’t sell new cars, and instead just refurbish cars from the ‘Sixties and ‘Seventies because new cars are too expensive. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/43 "2018-01-05T22:25:33Z")
I am not owed housing in the neighborhood of my choosing. I was priced out of my last neighborhood. It might happen again. My options for avoiding that are to work more, negotiate a longer lease (although current landlord will only go up to 24 mo), or buy. People move. One in nine last year. It used to be over one in five. ---
**Author:** ![Nadnerb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@Nadnerb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadnerb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/44 "2018-01-05T22:40:40Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > \*\*\* It causes a community to be less affordable.\*\* > > True, but the community is only ‘affordable’ because it is a shithole. > > \*\*\* It prices out long time residents.\*\* > > True. But those who own can see a short term gain. Those who rent will have to find other squalor. > > \*\*\* It is profit driven, and not community driven.\*\* > > True, but why is that bad? Developers make profit, builders make profit, agents make profit, new stores and other things are created…all of which are taxed. The new community is a better one and a wealthier one. The neighborhood will have better schools and will have a better tax base, and residents _city-wide_ are better off. A rising tide lifts all boats, so to speak. > > Bad neighborhoods will stay bad and get worse until investment comes in and that can only happen if there is profit to be made. > > The question is this: Who benefits from a neighborhood staying in decay? You fail to realize that gentrification is a classist and racist activity. You have to understand that gentrification is not done by people of the community. It’s done by outsiders. If a neighborhood is revitalized by people of the community, then that right there is where revitalization succeeds. And with that the neighborhood must remain affordable so we can keep the long term residents. If you want condos or luxury apartments, then build them in the suburbs where people can afford them. And in case you haven’t noticed gentrification is done almost exclusively by affluent white people, and minorities tend to oppose gentrification. ---
**Author:** ![Nadnerb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@Nadnerb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadnerb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/45 "2018-01-05T22:42:54Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure, but most neighborhoods start that way. How do you ensure it stays that way? No neighborhoods improve that way. In case you haven’t noticed gentrification is a threat to minorities and the working class. ---
**Author:** ![Nadnerb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@Nadnerb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadnerb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/46 "2018-01-05T22:43:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Gentrification also occurs when we suburbanize rural areas. That’s not gentrification that’s suburbanization. ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/47 "2018-01-05T22:54:01Z")
Isn’t the fundamental problem here “them that’s got shall get; them that’s not shall lose”? The benefits of gentrification accrue to those residents who were (relatively) wealthy and able to buy their own home and landlords who had consistently profited off low income tennents. (Note that there’s nothing inherently wrong with profiting off low income tennents. But in the real world many such folks are scumbags.) The pain of gentrification falls on lower income renters. And to a lesser or at least less specific extent on members of minority groups (ethnic, religious, or other) who depended on a the makeup of a particular neighborhood for social support. The overall net effect on the economy is probably positive but it “feels” very “unfair”. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/48 "2018-01-05T22:59:31Z")
It’s like every person who complains about how New York City has “lost its edge”. It’s “edge” was when places like St Marks St or Hell’s Kitchen were full of heroine addicts which is why the people who complain about New York losing it’s edge live in Westchester County, New Jersey and Long Island. > [@Nadnerb](#): > > They’ve lived there for so long and their homes are being stolen by rich assholes > . It’s not being “stolen”. They don’t own their homes if they are paying rent. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/49 "2018-01-05T23:15:29Z")
Chris Kennedy is accusing Raham Emmanual of having a plan to run the black people out of Chicago using gentrification. Supposedly he is setting up to run for mayor. Here is the link > **[Kennedy Says Emanuel's Plan Forces Out Black Chicagoans](https://patch.com/illinois/chicago/kennedy-says-emanuels-plan-forcing-out-black-chicagoans)** > > Democrat Chris Kennedy accused the mayor of being part of a "gentrification plan" that's pushing out black people. ---
**Author:** ![Nadnerb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@Nadnerb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadnerb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/50 "2018-01-05T23:18:20Z")
> [@Tom\_Terrific](#): > > Chris Kennedy is accusing Raham Emmanual of having a plan to run the black people out of Chicago using gentrification. Supposedly he is setting up to run for mayor. Here is the link > [Kennedy Says Emanuel's Plan Forces Out Black Chicagoans | Chicago, IL Patch](https://patch.com/illinois/chicago/kennedy-says-emanuels-plan-forcing-out-black-chicagoans) Chicagoans shouldn’t vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/51 "2018-01-05T23:22:59Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I think in fairness the problem, if that’s what it is, differs significantly in form in places which have rent control. In NY over 1mil rental units are rent stabilized. Whether a neighboorhood becomes ‘up and coming’ doesn’t do anything to rents for RS units in those neighborhoods, the increase is determined city wide (and zero for a couple of years lately). And tenants have the right to renew their leases as long as they fulfill the terms of the lease (and it’s pretty feasible to have other family members inherit them). > > So, problem solved? No obviously not. The other side of that coin is a cumulatively serious misallocation of resources, as is caused by any system of price controls. For one thing as you suggest, the issue of _non stabilized_ rents is obviously magnified by one whole portion of the housing stock immune to market signals. Without RS, rents on now RS places would go up, but the horror story rents on non RS would go down and meet somewhere in the middle. And you’d lose all the perverse incentives of RS like no means testing (once you’re in doesn’t matter how much you make), encouraging people to stay in apts too big for them as their situations change, the dynastic passing down of apts (which is really pretty ridiculous), etc. > > Again a fully rational discussion would be about more subsidizing of some people, broadly, by taking away more money from other people, broadly. The reason ideas like rent control/stabilization can persist is the political illusion that it’s something other than that, or that it’s only taking from the ‘greedy’, (people who invest in stocks to make money aren’t ‘greedy’, just people who invest in real estate), etc. > > But again I’m not sure it’s true ‘gentrification is worse’ in NY than the vast majority of other places in the US (SF is the only other major city I believe) which don’t have (much) rent control. Depends in part on actually establishing what’s bad, net, about ‘gentrification’, which is less than obvious. Here’s the thing though. I am quite sure that your “somewhere in the middle” would be crisis-level high in some cases, especially San Francisco. If you bring down the market rate by a certain percentage but now a much increased number of tenants has to pay it, you haven’t solved the problem you’ve just changed it to a somewhat different problem. There is also the fact that _construction_ of new buildings is also tightly controlled, so simply doing away with rent control/stabilization isn’t going to allow a free market of rental units with normalized/elastic supply and demand. ---
**Author:** ![Nadnerb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@Nadnerb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadnerb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/52 "2018-01-05T23:27:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s like every person who complains about how New York City has “lost its edge”. It’s “edge” was when places like St Marks St or Hell’s Kitchen were full of heroine addicts which is why the people who complain about New York losing it’s edge live in Westchester County, New Jersey and Long Island. > > It’s not being “stolen”. They don’t own their homes if they are paying rent. New York is losing its edge. If you take a look at Brooklyn it used to be a lot cheaper to live in than Manhattan. Now it’s fucken expensive thanks to all the gentrification. Brooklyn has massively lost its long time working class population. And those have actually lived in decent neighborhoods, until the gentrifiers took them over. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/53 "2018-01-05T23:27:49Z")
> [@Nadnerb](#): > > Why it’s bad: > > - It causes a community to be less affordable. > - It prices out long time residents. > - It is profit driven, and not community driven. > > And allow me to cite some references: > > \*[7 Reasons Why Gentrification Hurts Communities of Color - Everyday Feminism](https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/09/gentrification-communities-of-color/) Everyday feminism probably isn’t the best site to cite. Even when they aren’t being openly [hate-mongering](https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/10/white-liberals-perpetuate-racism/) and [racist](https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/11/why-white-women-terrify-me/), they aren’t exactly what most people would consider intellectually rigorous. Let’s look at the article that you linked to. After we click through the multiple messages from Everyday Feminism begging for money, most of what we find is complaints that other people are seeking money. I could pick the smaller errors. (The article refers to Oakland, CA., as a “neighborhood”. Oakland is a large city.) But the main arguments are stuff like this: Gentrification is driven by the private sector. Close-knit communities thrive on socially conscious business practices that benefit everyone. Wrong. In the USA and other prosperous countries, the purpose of businesses is to seek profit. There is not, nor has there ever been, any magical close-knit community where the profit motive doesn’t exist. The economy in a community anywhere in the country is expected to consist of various stores, restaurants, etc… that serve their customers with the intention of making a profit, not with a morally pure-as-the-snow, utterly non-capitalist desire to benefit everyone. As Adam Smith said, “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” The whole article sounds as if the author doesn’t have a clue about how economics works. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/54 "2018-01-05T23:34:01Z")
I think [aristocratization](https://www.theonion.com/report-nations-gentrified-neighborhoods-threatened-by-1819569723) is actually far more harmful in the long term than gentrification. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/55 "2018-01-05T23:34:23Z")
> [@Nadnerb](#): > > . If a neighborhood is revitalized by people of the community, then that right there is where revitalization succeeds. And with that the neighborhood must remain affordable so we can keep the long term residents. Well, I would certainly be in favor of THAT! Do you have some examples of when that has taken place? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/56 "2018-01-05T23:44:49Z")
> [@Nadnerb](#): > > New York is losing its edge. If you take a look at Brooklyn it used to be a lot cheaper to live in than Manhattan. Now it’s fucken expensive thanks to all the gentrification. Brooklyn has massively lost its long time working class population. And those have actually lived in decent neighborhoods, until the gentrifiers took them over. It was also a crime-riden dump in many of those neighborhoods. 20 to 30 years ago, no one wanted to live in places like Hells Kitchen, Times Square, Bed Stuy, Alphabet City, Harlem, Long Island City, DUMBO, Meatpacking District, Bowery, same in nearby Jersey City, Hoboken, Weehawken, West New York. Now even Newark has neighborhoods with stupid names full of hipster bars and restaurants. Yes, its sucks that CBGBs closed it’s doors and there is a chain coffee shop on every corner. But isn’t better to have a city people actually want to live in instead of some romanticized version of a failed city seen mostly in films like Taxi Driver and The Warriors? Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Nadnerb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@Nadnerb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadnerb)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/57 "2018-01-05T23:47:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It was also a crime-riden dump in many of those neighborhoods. 20 to 30 years ago, no one wanted to live in places like Hells Kitchen, Times Square, Bed Stuy, Alphabet City, Harlem, Long Island City, DUMBO, Meatpacking District, Bowery, same in nearby Jersey City, Hoboken, Weehawken, West New York. Now even Newark has neighborhoods with stupid names full of hipster bars and restaurants. Yes, its sucks that CBGBs closed it’s doors and there is a chain coffee shop on every corner. But isn’t better to have a city people actually want to live in instead of some romanticized version of a failed city seen mostly in films like Taxi Driver and The Warriors? > > Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk If I had to pick I’d much rather live in the latter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/58 "2018-01-05T23:54:14Z")
> [@Nadnerb](#): > > If I had to pick I’d much rather live in the latter. In this land of about 100M voting adults, you get 1 vote. Use it well! Or, vote with your feet and move to someplace like Detroit-- median home price ~ $45K. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/59 "2018-01-05T23:58:35Z")
> [@Nadnerb](#): > > If I had to pick I’d much rather live in the latter. We still have some failed cities you can move to, if that’s what your heart desires. And as a bonus, you’ll save a ton on housing costs. ---
**Author:** ![Nadnerb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@Nadnerb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadnerb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935/60 "2018-01-06T00:02:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > We still have some failed cities you can move to, if that’s what your heart desires. And as a bonus, you’ll save a ton on housing costs. List some please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gentrification-is-bad/805935.md?page=4)