# Geographical oddities (another thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 10, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895 "2014-12-10T23:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/81 "2014-12-15T04:52:10Z")
The Missouri River is the border between Nebraska and Iowa, except for Iowa’s pecker, Carter Lake, which is almost completely surrounded by Omaha, on the Nebraska side of the river. Long ago the river changed course, stranding Carter Lake, which is the name of the town and also a horseshoe shaped lake which is part of the old river. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/82 "2014-12-15T05:19:30Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Reno, NV is west of Los Angeles, CA That was what I was gonna post! Now, all I got is _You can’t get there from here, boy!_ ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/83 "2014-12-15T05:34:06Z")
Panama is nearly due south of New York. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/84 "2014-12-15T10:36:26Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > Thanks, **t-bonham**. It seems I put the cart before the horse; borders weren’t established to claim mountains, mountains determined the borders. And of course most of the ones where it’s _exactly_ on the border are in generally flat states where the general trend is just going up. Even if the neighboring state conquered the current high point, the new high point would still be on the border. Although one interesting exception to all of the above is [Boundary Peak](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_Peak_%28Nevada%29), which is the high point in Nevada. It’s pretty much smack dab on the California border, which would make you assume the mountain range simply defines the border, but it’s purely a coincidence. Also, the next highest peak (by less than 100 ft) is [Wheeler Peak](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler_Peak_(Nevada)) which is only a few miles from the _Utah_ border way on the other side of the state! ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/85 "2014-12-15T12:24:44Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > There are parts of Victoria where you can go east into South Australia. And west from South Australia into Victoria. Do you mind my asking, where? According to my atlas, the border between the states runs straight north - south all the way. ---
**Author:** ![Robrein](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robrein/32/6728_2.png) [@Robrein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robrein)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/86 "2014-12-15T12:55:43Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > Do you mind my asking, where? According to my atlas, the border between the states runs straight north - south all the way. At the far northern point, near the NSW triple point. The boarder between Victoria and SA is about 2 miles further west then it should be (141 E). [See here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Australia%E2%80%93Victoria_border_dispute). ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/87 "2014-12-15T14:40:00Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > The reason for this is that when setting boundaries for colonies/territories/states back when it was largely unexplored/surveyed land, it was common to set the dividing point as “the highlands” of a particular area. It was thought that this would be fairly easy to determine, based on the direction rivers flowed. > > For example, the boundary set between Maine and Canada: _“along the said highlands which divide those rivers that empty themselves into the St. Lawrence, and those which fall into the Atlantic ocean”_. (It turned out to be rather harder to define this specifically than was expected. Most of the later territory/state borders were defined on a strictly geographical basis, on specific ltitude/longitude lines. Thus the square/rectangular outlines of many of them. > > So it isn’t at all unlikely for the ‘highest point’ in many states to be along the border. They say that the border between Idaho & Montana was supposed to follow the Continental Divide all the way up. But the Rocky Mountains branched along the way, and the surveyors took the wrong branch. Eventually they came upon a stream flowing the wrong way, said “Oh, fuck it,” and just headed straight north to the Canadian border. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/88 "2014-12-15T15:25:46Z")
^ Thanks,\*\* Diceman\*\*, you made my day; I love a good “Oh, fuck it” story, and that one is priceless. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/89 "2014-12-15T16:17:46Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > ^ Thanks,\*\* Diceman\*\*, you made my day; I love a good “Oh, fuck it” story, and that one is priceless. 🙂 Except, of course, that it isn’t even close to being true. The boundary between the future states of Idaho and Montana was set at the Bitterroots by Congress in 1864, decades before any surveyor visited the area. When the surveyors did finally visit, in 1904-06, they did their job exactly as prescribed and this is the thanks they get–people accuse them of being incompetent drunkards! ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/90 "2014-12-15T16:32:11Z")
^ Aw, Dad, we was just playin. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/91 "2014-12-15T18:29:09Z")
In a sane world, the border between New Jersey and neighboring Delaware would go right down the middle of the Delaware River separating them. But we live in our own Bizarro World, where Delaware actually owns chunks of what you’d think would be New Jersey, on the _East_ side of the Delaware River: [https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;\_ylt=AwrB8o.sJ49UIGQAODeJzbkF;\_ylu=X3oDMTIyaTZzdW43BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANiNjY0ZjNiNDI2ZDFkMjYyMmE2MTdjNDAzM2JlN2E5OARncG9zAzIEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F\_adv\_prop%3Dimage%26va%3DNew%2BJersey%2BDelaware%2Bborder%26fr%3Dyfp-t-901-s%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D2&w=400&h=250&imgurl=www.cominganarchy.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fold\_uploads%2Fnjde.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcominganarchy.com%2F2006%2F03%2F01%2Fthe-meddlesome-duke-of-york-and-the-new-jersey-delaware-border-dispute%2F&size=37.7KB&name=The+Meddlesome+Duke+of+York+and+the+\New+Jersey-Delaware+Border\<%2Fb\>+Dispute&p=New+Jersey+Delaware+border&oid=b664f3b426d1d2622a617c4033be7a98&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-901-s&tt=The+Meddlesome+Duke+of+York+and+the+\New+Jersey-Delaware+Border\<%2Fb\>+Dispute&b=0&ni=288&no=2&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=13b3056tr&sigb=13r6uiafn&sigi=11v2rtla6&sigt=12dd7c8c2&sign=12dd7c8c2&.crumb=iFnxBO8CwGG&fr=yfp-t-901-s](https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8o.sJ49UIGQAODeJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIyaTZzdW43BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANiNjY0ZjNiNDI2ZDFkMjYyMmE2MTdjNDAzM2JlN2E5OARncG9zAzIEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3DNew%2BJersey%2BDelaware%2Bborder%26fr%3Dyfp-t-901-s%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D2&w=400&h=250&imgurl=www.cominganarchy.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fold_uploads%2Fnjde.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcominganarchy.com%2F2006%2F03%2F01%2Fthe-meddlesome-duke-of-york-and-the-new-jersey-delaware-border-dispute%2F&size=37.7KB&name=The+Meddlesome+Duke+of+York+and+the+%3Cb%3ENew+Jersey-Delaware+Border%3C%2Fb%3E+Dispute&p=New+Jersey+Delaware+border&oid=b664f3b426d1d2622a617c4033be7a98&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-901-s&tt=The+Meddlesome+Duke+of+York+and+the+%3Cb%3ENew+Jersey-Delaware+Border%3C%2Fb%3E+Dispute&b=0&ni=288&no=2&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=13b3056tr&sigb=13r6uiafn&sigi=11v2rtla6&sigt=12dd7c8c2&sign=12dd7c8c2&.crumb=iFnxBO8CwGG&fr=yfp-t-901-s) > **[New Jersey v. Delaware](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_v._Delaware)** > > New Jersey v. Delaware, 552 U.S. 597 (2008), is a United States Supreme Court case in which New Jersey sued Delaware, invoking the Supreme Court's original jurisdiction under 28 U.S.C. § 1251(a), following Delaware's denial of oil company BP's petition to build a liquefied natural gas pipeline and loading facility on the New Jersey side of the Delaware River. Delaware denied BP's petition because it violated Delaware's Coastal Zone Act. BP then sought New Jersey's approval of the pro Jurisdic... ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/92 "2014-12-15T18:29:22Z")
Some of those straight line borders for Arizona, Wyoming, etc are not really defined by meridians and parallels but are defined by surveyors trying to follow the meridian/parallel. The official border is therefore the survey markers and they sometimes missed the intended line by quite a bit, probably depending on the availability of whiskey at the time. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/93 "2014-12-15T18:53:01Z")
My favorite oddity, which I’ve mentioned before, is the _Kentucky Bend_. As a result of the meandering Mississippi, the extreme western chunk of Kentucky got isolated from the rest of the state when the Mississippi shifted south, allowing Missouri to spill over into Tennessee and cut off that bit of Kentucky. Apparently the state boundaries were defined by the river, not by what it had been in the past. > **[Kentucky Bend](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Bend)** > > The Kentucky Bend, variously called the New Madrid Bend, Madrid Bend, Bessie Bend, or Bubbleland, is an exclave of Fulton County, Kentucky, encircled by the states of Tennessee and Missouri. It is a portion of a peninsula defined by an oxbow loop meander of the Mississippi River, and its inclusion in the state of Kentucky stems from uncertainties of the course of the Mississippi River when the boundary between Tennessee and Kentucky was established. > As of the 2020 census, the population was ... I first learned about this from a Ripley’s Believe It Or Not entry, which said that it was impossible to go from the East end of Kentucky to the West end with out crossing another state. But I have riddled people about this in a more provocative way, asking which were the only three states that met at three distinct and separate places. One guy tried to show me that was topologically impossible, until I showed this to him on a map. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/94 "2014-12-15T18:55:46Z")
Check out [12 Mile Circle](http://www.howderfamily.com/blog/), a blog about all of this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/95 "2014-12-15T19:38:15Z")
> [@K364](#): > > Some of those straight line borders for Arizona, Wyoming, etc are not really defined by meridians and parallels but are defined by surveyors trying to follow the meridian/parallel. The official border is therefore the survey markers and they sometimes missed the intended line by quite a bit, probably depending on the availability of whiskey at the time. This was all being conducted with 19th Century surveying equipment. They did the best they could. I believe that US law has always held that the surveyed border trumps whatever the theoretical border should be. That’s why Georgia was SOL in its recent attempt to push its border north and steal water from Tennessee. Regardless of whether or not the border is supposed to be further north, what’s important is that the border _isn’t_ further north, and never has been. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/96 "2014-12-15T19:46:36Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > There are parts of Victoria where you can go east into South Australia. And west from South Australia into Victoria. > [@vontsira](#): > > Do you mind my asking, where? According to my atlas, the border between the states runs straight north - south all the way. > [@Robrein](#): > > At the far northern point, near the NSW triple point. The boarder between Victoria and SA is about 2 miles further west then it should be (141 E). [See here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Australia%E2%80%93Victoria_border_dispute). Thanks – fascinating stuff. I now want to visit the extreme north-western corner of Victoria (detail on the ground, basically in too small an area to show up on my Philip’s Great World Atlas) to experience these doings for myself ! There has featured previously on SDMB, the wondrously crazy enclaves-and-exclaves situation around Baarle, up against the Netherlands / Belgian border – which I have been to and sampled for myself. [enclaves.webs.com/westerneurope.htm](http://enclaves.webs.com/westerneurope.htm) ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/97 "2014-12-15T19:53:25Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > In a sane world, the border between New Jersey and neighboring Delaware would go right down the middle of the Delaware River separating them. But we live in our own Bizarro World, where Delaware actually owns chunks of what you’d think would be New Jersey, on the _East_ side of the Delaware River: > > [https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;\_ylt=AwrB8o.sJ49UIGQAODeJzbkF;\_ylu=X3oDMTIyaTZzdW43BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANiNjY0ZjNiNDI2ZDFkMjYyMmE2MTdjNDAzM2JlN2E5OARncG9zAzIEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F\_adv\_prop%3Dimage%26va%3DNew%2BJersey%2BDelaware%2Bborder%26fr%3Dyfp-t-901-s%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D2&w=400&h=250&imgurl=www.cominganarchy.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fold\_uploads%2Fnjde.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcominganarchy.com%2F2006%2F03%2F01%2Fthe-meddlesome-duke-of-york-and-the-new-jersey-delaware-border-dispute%2F&size=37.7KB&name=The+Meddlesome+Duke+of+York+and+the+\New+Jersey-Delaware+Border\<%2Fb\>+Dispute&p=New+Jersey+Delaware+border&oid=b664f3b426d1d2622a617c4033be7a98&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-901-s&tt=The+Meddlesome+Duke+of+York+and+the+\New+Jersey-Delaware+Border\<%2Fb\>+Dispute&b=0&ni=288&no=2&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=13b3056tr&sigb=13r6uiafn&sigi=11v2rtla6&sigt=12dd7c8c2&sign=12dd7c8c2&.crumb=iFnxBO8CwGG&fr=yfp-t-901-s](https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8o.sJ49UIGQAODeJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIyaTZzdW43BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANiNjY0ZjNiNDI2ZDFkMjYyMmE2MTdjNDAzM2JlN2E5OARncG9zAzIEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3DNew%2BJersey%2BDelaware%2Bborder%26fr%3Dyfp-t-901-s%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D2&w=400&h=250&imgurl=www.cominganarchy.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fold_uploads%2Fnjde.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcominganarchy.com%2F2006%2F03%2F01%2Fthe-meddlesome-duke-of-york-and-the-new-jersey-delaware-border-dispute%2F&size=37.7KB&name=The+Meddlesome+Duke+of+York+and+the+%3Cb%3ENew+Jersey-Delaware+Border%3C%2Fb%3E+Dispute&p=New+Jersey+Delaware+border&oid=b664f3b426d1d2622a617c4033be7a98&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-901-s&tt=The+Meddlesome+Duke+of+York+and+the+%3Cb%3ENew+Jersey-Delaware+Border%3C%2Fb%3E+Dispute&b=0&ni=288&no=2&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=13b3056tr&sigb=13r6uiafn&sigi=11v2rtla6&sigt=12dd7c8c2&sign=12dd7c8c2&.crumb=iFnxBO8CwGG&fr=yfp-t-901-s) > > [New Jersey v. Delaware - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_v._Delaware) Re that general part of the world: I was surprised and intrigued to discover a couple of years ago (by chance, in course of a project undertaken) that the New York borough of Staten Island is not only separated by a wide stretch of water from the rest of New York; but is to its west, hard-up-against New Jersey – separated from NJ by only a narrow channel. I’d hitherto imagined Staten Island as being “in splendid isolation”. In practical terms, it might seem to make more sense for S.I. to be part of New Jersey; but how boring and fun-devoid, that would be… ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/98 "2014-12-15T19:53:50Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > When the surveyors did finally visit, in 1904-06, they did their job exactly as prescribed and this is the thanks they get–people accuse them of being incompetent drunkards! > [@K364](#): > > … they sometimes missed the intended line by quite a bit, probably depending on the availability of whiskey at the time. A. W. Von Schmidt’s only excuse was he was just an asshole! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/99 "2014-12-15T19:54:03Z")
For the USA, there is a book that details all these stories about states’ borders. I found it fascinating. _How the States Got Their Shapes_, by Mark Stein. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895/100 "2014-12-15T20:05:16Z")
The [Magdalen Islands](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalen_Islands) of Canada are legally part of Quebec (and, as you might guess, largely French speaking), but the only regular ferry service is from Prince Edward Island. So to get from Montreal to the Magdalen Islands without flying or chartering your own sea voyage, you have to drive Quebec-\>New Brunswick-\>PEI-\>Quebec (Magdalen Islands). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/geographical-oddities-another-thread/706895.md?page=6)