# George Allen and the deer head? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 27, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389 "2006-09-27T17:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/41 "2006-09-28T05:32:52Z")
Let’s not forget that Allen ran a whisper campaign about Mary Sue Terry being a lesbian in order to beat her in the Governor’s race. Nasty smear campaigns are no stranger to him and his people. It now seems that Webb has his own allegation of n word usage to deal with: > **[Webb Denies Ever Using Word as Epithet](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/27/AR2006092702062.html)** > > RICHMOND, Sept. 27 -- Democratic Senate candidate James Webb on Wednesday sought to explain remarks he had made a day earlier, in which he refused to say whether he had used the "N-word," but he insisted he has never used it as a racial epithet aimed... Looks like the Allen campaign, after several days of floundering, has found something they can hope will netrualize the issue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/42 "2006-09-28T05:58:46Z")
It’s hard to imagine men of their age who did at one time in their younger days use the “N” word. I like the way Webb charcterized it as “pass[ing] through their lips”, as if the word had a life of its own. One doesn’t say the word, it passes through your lips. He’s got a great career ahead of him as a politician. 🙂 This whole business about digging up stuff that happened 20, 30 years ago, sometimes while the parties were still in college is a terrible idea if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/43 "2006-09-28T06:20:55Z")
Can you imagine opening your mailbox and finding a deer head staring out at you? If I opened the mailbox I probably wouldn’t be able to tell it was a deer’s head, just some creature with its ears folded down around that creepy face. In my head I can see those blank eyes and it’s seriously creeping me out. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/44 "2006-09-28T13:52:57Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] This whole business about digging up stuff that happened 20, 30 years ago, sometimes while the parties were still in college is a terrible idea if you ask me. [/QUOTE] I agree, for the most part, that it’s a poisonous habit we’ve gotten ourselves into if we’re fixated on digging up every little flawed bit of history we can find for the sole purpose of smearing our opponents, rather than debating them on the issues at hand. That said, if it’s something serious, I’d want to know. There’s danger even in that, of course, as what’s serious to one person may not be to another. I suppose some people may look upon the act of stuffing a large animal’s head into somebody’s mailbox as a relatively harmless youthful indiscretion. If I, personally, found a deer’s head in my mailbox, I’d be terrified. If I felt I was, in addition, being victimized because of my ethnic background, I think I’d be seriously traumatized. I could be wrong, but playing with animal carcasses, or portions thereof, for the purpose of terrorizing others strikes me as a legitimately pathological thing to do, and if it is not itself a clear indicator of disease, it’s certainly a troubling sign. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/45 "2006-09-28T14:15:27Z")
[QUOTE=Talon Karrde] Can you imagine opening your mailbox and finding a deer head staring out at you? If I opened the mailbox I probably wouldn’t be able to tell it was a deer’s head, just some creature with its ears folded down around that creepy face. In my head I can see those blank eyes and it’s seriously creeping me out. [/QUOTE] What I’ve been wondering is whether it would be better or worse than waking up with a horse head in your bed. ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/46 "2006-09-28T15:51:37Z")
This story is so full of crap! Innuendo, accusations, finger pointing. It’s turning into a bunch of “well I thought I heard someone say that they knew someone who was friends with a person that might have possibly overheard it.” Read this [story](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15027633/) . ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/47 "2006-09-28T16:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] This story is so full of crap! Innuendo, accusations, finger pointing. It’s turning into a bunch of “well I thought I heard someone say that they knew someone who was friends with a person that might have possibly overheard it.” Read this [story](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15027633/) . [/QUOTE] So, Sabato, who it appears never claimed to have heard Allen used racist terms first hand, clarifies by saying > [@](#): > > My conclusion is based on the very credible testimony I have heard for weeks, mainly from people I personally know and knew in the '70s And you take this as proof that the whole story is bunk? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/48 "2006-09-28T16:41:15Z")
I was wondering if any official complaint corroborating the deer head incident would surface. The article suggests that even if such a complaint had been filed, the record might not have been preserved. No matter what, if there’s no other corroborating evidence, all we’ve got is the word of these two guys. It’s such a bizarre story, it’s hard to imagine (for me, anyway) why someone would want to fabricate something so far-fetched to slander another. Then again, weirder things have happened, I suppose. A person sympathetic to Allen had some pretty negative things to say about Shelton (“deep-rooted problems with self-identity”), but then there’s Beam, whose credibility hasn’t been challenged, so far as I know. It’s frustrating there aren’t more facts available, one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/49 "2006-09-28T17:05:56Z")
A roadkill deer wearing a dress was left in my uncle’s driveway back when I was a kid. He didn’t call the cops. He did call every one he knew though. He thought it was hilarious, and was impressed that the neighborhood kids would pull such a prank. Not every prank resulted in a police call in the seventies. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/50 "2006-09-28T17:10:46Z")
Wow. Not sure where to put that on the “sickness” spectrum. Might be different if it were a pair of deer’s legs in nylons, I suppose. Dismemberment feels like crossing the line. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/51 "2006-09-28T23:05:47Z")
I don’t know about ya’ll, but this sort of clinches it: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15051663/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15051663/) You can call her a Democrat all you want. They are cry and try to tar and feather Webb, even though it’s clearly Allen’s own dumb words that are bringing people in out of the woodwork. She not only sounds too credible she’s got a family member to back up the fact that she talked about it back when it happened. George Allen is lying, plain and simple. The question now is: how is Webb going to handle his own accusation, and is it true as well? And is ANY race more screwed up than this one? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/52 "2006-09-28T23:20:13Z")
On the level of racism, sadism, and severed heads? No, but [New York](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2380182,00.html) is seeing its share of sleaze, if you’re looking for a good runner-up. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/53 "2006-09-28T23:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Amazing this is coming out now, and not during his earlier Senate run, nor during his earlier state political races. Yes, I remember how often you raised the same point on John Kerry’s behalf during the Swift Boat allegations. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/54 "2006-09-29T00:33:48Z")
lol. Bricker’s just upset that he’s never going to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/55 "2006-09-29T00:40:40Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] I don’t know about ya’ll, but this sort of clinches it: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15051663/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15051663/) You can call her a Democrat all you want. They are cry and try to tar and feather Webb, even though it’s clearly Allen’s own dumb words that are bringing people in out of the woodwork. She not only sounds too credible she’s got a family member to back up the fact that she talked about it back when it happened. George Allen is lying, plain and simple. The question now is: how is Webb going to handle his own accusation, and is it true as well? And is ANY race more screwed up than this one? [/QUOTE] Hardball did an extensive review of that woman’s allegations including a long intereveiw with her. I think CM devoted about 75% of his program today on the “n” word issue. Look for acquaintences of Webb to come out of the woodworks saying he used it, too. This is gonig to get nasty, or rather, it’s going to get nastier than it already is! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/56 "2006-09-29T00:48:39Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Hardball did an extensive review of that woman’s allegations including a long intereveiw with her. I think CM devoted about 75% of his program today on the “n” word issue. Look for acquaintences of Webb to come out of the woodworks saying he used it, too. [/QUOTE] One already has. Webb however, note hasn’t exactly denied never using it. He says that he used it in some of his novels and that he may have used it but that it isn’t part of his vocabulary. He has, however, called the entire Cragg story a lie. I know there is no reason to take my partisan opinion seriously, but frankly, Cragg’s story does sound pretty incredible. Webb told him that he drove to Watts and pointed guns at people and then got beat up? He told him this story… but Cragg left it off the tape and transcript somehow? In any case, I still don’t think the accusations much compare. Even if the one accusation against Webb held up, what he said doesn’t quite compare to all the crazy shit Allen is accused of having said (not just using the word, but using it in sentances like "don’t worry, they aren’t taking over, our state is still cool!) and his vehement denials. I predict a tearful meltdown before this is over. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/57 "2006-09-29T01:45:37Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] I don’t think Virginia is notable for its racism. No Northern state has elected an African American Governor. Virginia is FAR more racially integrated than most northern states (i.e. mixed race neighborhoods as opposed to flat out white/black neighborhoods). [/QUOTE] I agree. However, I think it’s undebatable that a racist is more likely to vote republican than democrat. That’s not saying anything about either party; only about racists. I think that’s all An Arky meant. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/58 "2006-09-29T01:52:59Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] I agree. However, I think it’s undebatable that a racist is more likely to vote republican than democrat. That’s not saying anything about either party; only about racists. I think that’s all An Arky meant. [/QUOTE] You know in a sense, it is funny. For the most part, politics in Virginia are almost never all that colorful. I don’t want to say that the politicians are boring, but for the most part, nothing like this has really happened in recent memory. This makes Oliver North’s run at the Senate seem pretty sedate by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/59 "2006-09-29T01:57:53Z")
I still say that Allen’s seat was his to lose. If he does end up losing it, he’ll have no one to blame but himself-- no matter how nasty this becomes. One thing’s for sure, thoug… his presidential bid in’08 is dead! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389/60 "2006-09-29T02:50:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I still say that Allen’s seat was his to lose. If he does end up losing it, he’ll have no one to blame but himself-- no matter how nasty this becomes. One thing’s for sure, thoug… his presidential bid in’08 is dead! On this, we’re in complete agreement. This has been the most self-destructive campaign I’ve seen since Gary Hart’s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-allen-and-the-deer-head/374389.md?page=4)