# George Bush shut the fuck up! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 21, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162 "2005-02-21T13:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/121 "2005-02-23T20:33:55Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Flaunted geneva conventions with _tortured_ logic? Indeed. Italics mine. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/122 "2005-02-23T22:58:28Z")
> [@](#): > > And what if your reaction was the wrong course to take? Sometimes standing on the sidelines, or staying out of something untl it affects you is the smart move. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DYNAMICS OF THE SITUATION! I don’t care, I don’t see any justification in letting Saddam remain in power because we’re scared of seeing people who practise Islam into government, which strangely enough, is supported by a considerable amount of people, if they want an Islamist government who the fuck are we to say otherwise? And hey, its not like they’re trampling on the democratic process, ready to institute a theocracy is it? > [@](#): > > I can invent up a situation in which going to “save” a neighbor befalls more harm on me, then letting them get their ass kicked. You, I’m sure can invent a situation in which interceding saves the day. So because of that outcome you would refrain from getting involved completely, in any situation? > [@](#): > > Why do you assume that your neighbor’s problems will become your own? So if he’s getting beat up by some bookie he owes money to, and I don’t go help him, the bookie will come burn down my house after he’s done beating the shit out of him? If I go intercede and save him, will the bookie will magically go away forever, or come back with 10 of his boys and “burn down my house”? Oh please, I’m merely pointing out that thuggerry cannot be controlled or eradicated through complacency alone, sometimes making a stand regardless of what the outcome maybe, is the only way to stop it. > [@](#): > > Your logic is retarded man. You’re suggesting that the best course of action is to always get involved in the situation. Most sane people know that there are times to go in, and times to stay out Well ok, I’ll consider your approach to this situation. Ok, we’ve got Iraq Saddam dies after a long reign of power, Qusay tries to obtain leadership, it fails, and the country collapses into civil war, Kurdistani Republic is proclaimed, and Turkey invades, Turkey massacres and abuses Human rights in comparison to the Baaths in Baghdad, the Shia, declare independence, and fight for control of heavily split Baghdad, the complete anarchy creates more tumoil in an energy rich region more devastating that the Afghan war, do you see where I’m going? You can say the US was wrong to invade, or get involved, but sometimes by accident, it can be for the better, and in this case it seems to be a correct assumption. > [@](#): > > As any left wing, fuck that, has any pres from any wing, waged preemptive war on totally false pretenses? How about telling the world to shove it on greenhouse emissions? How about telling the world court to fuck off? Flaunted geneva conventions with tortured logic? etc, etc ,etc. Held people without trial on some Orwellian tip? Yep, the Soviets. Oh yeah, you’re exaggerating. This administration isn’t the end of the world, and I bet good money this type of hysterics was the norm for the Reagan administration. > [@](#): > > Are you even trying to imply that the world doesn’t have enough reason to bash him so much? I could probably name 10 things of the top of my head. No > [@](#): > > A. The world is biased against Bush Got it in one, I agree he’s done alot of bad policy decisions, but he’s hardly the devil incarnate, and I believe alot of the hatred is hyped up against him. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/123 "2005-02-23T23:39:25Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t care, I don’t see any justification in letting Saddam remain in power because we’re scared of seeing people who practise Islam into government, Scared? Where the hell did I mention that. Would you like to know _my_ justification for “leaving SH in power”? We’d be 400 _BILLION_ richer, still have global respect, and thousands of dead and injured soldiers wouldn’t be dead and injured. Now it’s important to point out that the alternate to not invading isn’t to let SH do whatever the fuck he wanted. Do you follow me? > [@](#): > > which strangely enough, is supported by a considerable amount of people, if they want an Islamist government who the fuck are we to say otherwise? And hey, its not like they’re trampling on the democratic process, ready to institute a theocracy is it? We should just be mindful not to replace SH with something worse, like say, a shite dominated theocracy with links to Iran. Only time will tell, but I’m not optimistic about things. > [@](#): > > So because of that outcome you would refrain from getting involved completely, in any situation? I take each situation on a case by case basis. Upon examination of the Iraq situation I would have waited longer to invade. > [@](#): > > Oh please, I’m merely pointing out that thuggerry cannot be controlled or eradicated through complacency alone, sometimes making a stand regardless of what the outcome maybe, is the only way to stop it. You know you should come live in the neighborhood I grew up in. The game is about survival, not running around preaching this and that. You would be amazed at what can be accomplished by complacency, namely YOU’RE LEFT THE FUCK ALONE. Look at a bazillion other countries and ask why they’re not having terrorists chant death to them. Now sometimes you have to throw the beatdown on a punk, and that’s fine. SH was no doubt a punk, but every punk has his price. $500 million to get rid of the punk? fine by me. $100 billion? Um, shit, that’s getting expensive. $400 Billion? Screw that, we could have healthcare, let him live. $1 TRILLION? At what point do you say he wasn’t worth it. I’ve surpassed my threshold. > [@](#): > > Ok, we’ve got Iraq Saddam dies after a long reign of power, Qusay tries to obtain leadership, it fails, and the country collapses into civil war, Kurdistani Republic is proclaimed, and Turkey invades, Turkey massacres and abuses Human rights in comparison to the Baaths in Baghdad, the Shia, declare independence, and fight for control of heavily split Baghdad, the complete anarchy creates more tumoil in an energy rich region more devastating that the Afghan war, do you see where I’m going? You can say the US was wrong to invade, or get involved, but sometimes by accident, it can be for the better, and in this case it seems to be a correct assumption. Sometimes by _accident_? Are you serious? So we just go in, blow them up, and hopefully everything will work out? Who does better on a math quiz? The person that prepares for all possible contingencies and is familiar with the work? Or maybe the guy that just rolls on in, and hopes he accidently passes? > [@](#): > > Yep, the Soviets. Oh yeah, you’re exaggerating. This administration isn’t the end of the world, and I bet good money this type of hysterics was the norm for the Reagan administration. Nobody said this administration was the end of the world. Personally I think it’s the fading of America as we know it into the history books, but thats my opinion. > [@](#): > > Got it in one, I agree he’s done alot of bad policy decisions, but he’s hardly the devil incarnate, and I believe alot of the hatred is hyped up against him. People don’t like him because of his bad policy decisions, not because he’s a republican. Please get that through your thick skull. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/124 "2005-02-24T02:43:14Z")
Bush isn’t trusted or liked because there is the suspicion that the man and his corporate cronies have their own personal agendas (to the tune of “ka-ching!”) when it comes to embroiling America and her allies into turgid mish-mashes that are the result of his foreign policy decisions. “Bring democracy to another country? Hmm – and how much profit will my friends make out of the carcase while we’re doin’ that?” Remember when I said that comparing Bush’s record of “freedom making” with Clinton’s wasn’t saying much? Clinton as far as Al-Qaeda went was a shade like someone playing “Pin the Tail on the Donkey” and completely missing the target, flailing around in the room, blind. Bush is more like, “To hell with the paper donkey – lets go blow up the neighbours. I feel a profit-making moment comin’ on.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/125 "2005-02-24T05:36:22Z")
> [@Ice Wolf](#): > > Bush isn’t trusted or liked because there is the suspicion that the man and his corporate cronies have their own personal agendas (to the tune of “ka-ching!”) when it comes to embroiling America and her allies into turgid mish-mashes that are the result of his foreign policy decisions. “Bring democracy to another country? Hmm – and how much profit will my friends make out of the carcase while we’re doin’ that?” And yet, amazingly, while this view of Mr. Bush is crystal-clear to you, so much so that you seemingly cannot admit any other possible interpretation as valid… he gathered millions more votes and than his rival here in the U.S. It boggles the mind, eh? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/126 "2005-02-24T05:42:45Z")
FTR I don’t think Bush is evil (although the cabal surrounding his (imo)), I think he’s some naive country bumpkin who shouldn’t be the president. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/127 "2005-02-24T05:54:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And yet, amazingly, while this view of Mr. Bush is crystal-clear to you, so much so that you seemingly cannot admit any other possible interpretation as valid… he gathered millions more votes and than his rival here in the U.S. > > It boggles the mind, eh? Not really. His campaign crew knew just what strings to pull in the emotional pattern that is America, and where. Just like selling a brand of soap powder. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/128 "2005-02-24T07:03:35Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > You know you should come live in the neighborhood I grew up in. The game is about survival, not running around preaching this and that. You would be amazed at what can be accomplished by complacency, namely YOU’RE LEFT THE FUCK ALONE. Look at a bazillion other countries and ask why they’re not having terrorists chant death to them. Now sometimes you have to throw the beatdown on a punk, and that’s fine. SH was no doubt a punk, but every punk has his price. $500 million to get rid of the punk? fine by me. $100 billion? Um, shit, that’s getting expensive. $400 Billion? Screw that, we could have healthcare, let him live. $1 TRILLION? At what point do you say he wasn’t worth it. Remind me not to buy a house next to you. I’m quite sure if you saw burglers breaking into my house you’d debate with yourself as to if it is your own best interest to call the police and get involved. Hey, I could be defaulting on my bills and they could be collection agents, right? And if my house caught fire, as long as the wind is blowing the other direction away from your house, you’d do nothing, because after all it is none of your concern that my house burns down. Why get invovled as there is no benefit to you. > [@](#): > > How about telling the world court to fuck off? Flaunted geneva conventions with tortured logic? etc, etc ,etc. Held people without trial on some Orwellian tip ? Sorry, I’m having a problem reconciling these statements of yours. Telling the World Court to fuck off is of no concern of yours. It doesn’t affect you. You’re not being told to fuck off. Maybe they deserve to be told to fuck off. Maybe they owe money to somebody? Kofi Anan for example. Or is it Kofi Anan paying them money? In any case, it doesn’t matter and is no concern of yours until it affects you personally. Lets here no more about it then, hm’kay? Maybe the Geneva Conventions are being flaunted and people are being held on Orwelliean tips. Maybe they owe some drug debt to a bunch of enraged bookies and if you got involved those drug dealers would come around and bother you? Or shit, they could even be terrorists and their buddies could come around to blow you up! Back to your comment on health care: Why would health matter to you at all? Unless you expected all the billions you quote for yourself, that is. Well, that health care could be going to fix that guy being beat up by the hoodlums on the street if we follow our little scenario to its end. If you couldn’t be bothered to lift a finger to stop the beating, why would you care if he got health care to cure him after the fact? Or for anyone else given how you view assisting others. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/129 "2005-02-24T10:32:06Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You seem rather upset for a ‘calm’ kiwi. 😉 > > Hey, lets see if this works, “You are a fucking idiot! Anyone who would vote for Candidate X is an idiot. How can you be so stupid to allow someone like X to run your country?!” Does it make you upset when someone talks to you like that? If not you, then do you think it might make someone else upset if you talked to them like that? I think one of the reasons that GW is back in the White House is because people chose to voice their opinion in a negative way and many Americans took offense to that. It may not be logical, it may not be rational, and you may not like it, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not true. All I’m saying that the more you are derogatory towards someone the less chance you have to influence them. Shit, I like a good flame/rant as much as anyone which is making me wonder why I am arguing this, but the GW bashing is a continuous and monotonous drone that won’t solve anything anyhow. I apologise for ranting because you actually have a very valid point. I have just got to the stage where seeing his face makes me cringe. Not a mature attitude I admit. Shall I ask the Mods if I can change my name to prone-to-hissy-fits kiwi? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/130 "2005-02-24T10:36:35Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I guess the alternate is to hide on an island in the middle of the Pacific…Hmmm… See I thought I was living in an island in the middle of the Pacific. An Island that has done it’s fair share. Now I know we are just hiding here I feel so secretive. > [@](#): > > At what point do you stand by and not do something when others are hurting or being killed? This is not a question just about Iraq. If you saw your neighbour being attacked on the street, what would you do? Close your curtains? Call the police? Go out and stop the attackers? How to you choose who to protect and who to ignore? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/131 "2005-02-24T10:38:32Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > He’s done more for freedom than Clinton ever did 🙂 And Clinton did more to promote the power of the blow job…your point is what? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/132 "2005-02-24T10:59:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Remind me not to buy a house next to you. I’m quite sure if you saw burglers breaking into my house you’d debate with yourself as to if it is your own best interest to call the police and get involved. Hey, I could be defaulting on my bills and they could be collection agents, right? And if my house caught fire, as long as the wind is blowing the other direction away from your house, you’d do nothing, because after all it is none of your concern that my house burns down. Why get invovled as there is no benefit to you. The difference is that you and your neighbour both have houses in the same country subjected to the same laws. Therefore you and your neighbour are both aware of the laws. Your country and another country do not have the same laws. NZ does not have the death penalty. Does George want to come down here and make us bump off our murderers in our own best interest? NZ has legal prostitution. Does George want to come and teach us how to be more moral? Why is it ok for the US to have nukes yet the thought of Iran having nukes puts George in a frenzy? This is why the UN is a good thing and America playing world cop is not. If a significant portion of the world agrees a country needs protecting or is being “bad” that is one thing. For Mr Bush to decide that, is a whole other thing. This is why I believe he is breeding terrorism. He is making those who he has problems with feel persecuted and some of them decide to take matters into their own hands BEFORE he arrives democracise them. Oh and well said **World Eater** and **Ice Wolf** ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/133 "2005-02-24T11:30:03Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > The difference is that you and your neighbour both have houses in the same country subjected to the same laws. Therefore you and your neighbour are both aware of the laws. So, you are saying you’d help your neighbour if he was being beat up by thugs (this is assuming you can answer all the caveats of World Eater)? > [@](#): > > Your country and another country do not have the same laws. I see. So, people thrown in prison camp in NK because they bad mouth a dead dictator is okay with you because NK has laws that are different than NZ? In NZ the people have a say about their laws which is why you can have no death penalty and legalized prostitution. In NK people have no choice. I’m sure you can figure out which is a better system for people, can’t you? > [@](#): > > Why is it ok for the US to have nukes yet the thought of Iran having nukes puts George in a frenzy? If you had the choice of a nuclear armed US, or a nuclear armed Iran, as your neighbour which would you honestly pick? I’m sure that all the countries around Iran are just hoping that Iran gets the bomb, yep, I’m sure. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > This is why the UN is a good thing and America playing world cop is not. If a significant portion of the world agrees a country needs protecting or is being “bad” that is one thing. For Mr Bush to decide that, is a whole other thing. To bad a significant portion of the world does nothing to protect the ‘people’ of those countries like Iraq and NK. The ‘country’ is only a line drawn on a map. The people in them are what matters. And while the country is protected the people in them are killed at the will of whatever monsters run the place. > [@](#): > > This is why I believe he is breeding terrorism. He is making those who he has problems with feel persecuted and some of them decide to take matters into their own hands BEFORE he arrives democracise them. Or, they could democratize themselves and avoid the problem in the first place. How horrible for the people of those countries if their leaders actually allowed them a voice in their own affairs. Let’s see, what are Mr. Terrorist’s choices? Strap a bomb to myself and blow up myself and my fellow citizens, OR pick up a shovel, broom, hammer, or other constructive tool, and start cleaning up the mess generated by removal of, what everyone agrees, was a brutal dictator ie. Saddam. Sorry, terrorists and dictators breed themselves. It is up to the entire world to eliminate them and not kowtow to their demands. If everyone did this then there’d be no more dictators. If the entire world stood up to Kim Jung and Saddam and kicked the buggers out we wouldn’t be in messes like this. And frankly if guys like Kim Jung feel a little worried because of GW that is more than the UN has ever done to him. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/134 "2005-02-24T11:45:54Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > It sounds like your conditions are that the terrorists are taken care of before you arrive there. What would be the point of having you then? …on the 25th of April every year, New Zealanders and Australians commemorate ANZAC day, to remember the events at Gallipoli in 1915. Gallipoli was a turning point in our nation-we lost nearly 3000 people during the eight month campaign, a devestating amount of people for a country this small. Our nation learned a harsh lesson-and that lesson was be very careful entrusting the lives of your soldiers to Generals from other nations. Our soldiers are well trained, they are brave, and if called upon to fight, they most certainly would. But we would only do it when we trust the commanders leading us, and we have faith in the statergy guiding the campaign. > [@](#): > > One of the reasons for the terrorists is because this is perceived as empire building by the US. The terrorists think that they can do the Afghani trick of wearing down their occupiers over a long period of time and eventually the US will pull out because the US population will tire of it as in Vietnam. A multi-national force supported by their local governments and populations would hinder that thinking and make the terrorist’s operations difficult at best. So if you consider that the US are being seen as empire builders, and a multi-national force supported by local governments and populations would hinder that thinking, wouldn’t you think it would be logical for the US to have handed over control to the United Nations early in the occupation? > [@](#): > > If the terrorists can’t interfere with the infrastructure rebuilding and people start getting comfortable and feel safe again then support for the terrorists will dry up in the Iraqi population. It would be a huge blow to the terrorists if the world said, “Well, we don’t agree with you as to why you went in there, but we will certainly help in cleaning this mess up for nothing if not the Iraqi’s sake”. …we offered-we were there for a year. We were there, in the mess, for Iraq’s sake. At the end of that year, there was nothing more we could do. > [@](#): > > I guess the alternate is to hide on an island in the middle of the Pacific…Hmmm… > > At what point do you stand by and not do something when others are hurting or being killed? This is not a question just about Iraq. If you saw your neighbour being attacked on the street, what would you do? Close your curtains? Call the police? Go out and stop the attackers? > > How about this? > NK Gulags > Or this? > Experiments on Prisoners? > > Just let it continue until the NKoreans somehow rise up against it? What if that never happens? It seems rather cruel to let these people suffer just because they are not in a position to ask someone for help. > Quote: > “How did you feel when you saw the children die?”, I asked. > His answer shocked me. > > “I had no sympathy at all because I was taught to think that they were all enemies of our country and that all our country’s problems were their fault. So I felt they deserved to die.” > > Sounds a lot like interveiws with former SS guards who worked in the death camps, doesn’t it? …oooh, your right, we should do something about things like this… Maybe you’d like to read this [newly commisioned 94 page report on torture in Iraq](http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iraq0105/) … Some quotes for you… > [@](#): > > As soon as I entered the Crime Combat Office, they blindfolded me and bound my hands very tightly with a piece of cloth. Then God’s mercy descended on me. They began hitting me in the captain’s room. There was more than one of them. They didn’t ask me any questions, but kept beating me for about ten minutes. I was especially hit on my back with what I thought were rifle butts, and they were insulting me and swearing all the while. I fell to the ground, so they took me and put me in another room for about two hours, keeping me blindfolded and handcuffed. Then they took me to the torture room where I was beaten again with cables and falaqa [beating on the soles of the feet]. I couldn’t tell from which direction the blows would come. I could tell from their voices that there were four or five of them. > > After about eight days they began negotiating with me over the price for my release. Of course here everything is with money. If you want to get word to your family, you have to pay. If you want to eat, you have to pay. I was told that the captain was asking for one million dinars for my release. I said that was a lot of money, and they said, “You can afford it: you have a house, a car and a good business.” We finally settled for 350,000 dinars, and they released me. The following day, a policeman was sent to pick up the money, and he told me they were keeping an eye on me. > [@](#): > > It happened on July 11, between midnight and one o’clock in the morning. The police rounded us up and took us to [Criminal] Intelligence headquarters. They took us upstairs and put us in a small cell that had no air conditioning. There were other detainees there, altogether fifteen or seventeen people. We stayed there eight days. They blindfolded us during interrogation, and accused us of having blown up a shop that sells alcohol. They said we belonged to the Mahdi Army. I was beaten with cables. They threw water over my face and then attached electric wires to my ears. Then we were taken to the Major Crimes [Directorate], where we were interrogated again.81 > > One of the others in the same group, 21-year-old ‘Ali Rashid ‘Abbadi, said the police first took them to al-‘Alwiyya police station, where they kept them for one hour or so before taking them to the Criminal Intelligence Directorate: > > The police came and started hitting us. They shouted at us to confess to being members of the Mahdi Army. The owner of the alcohol shop had told them that he didn’t know us, but they arrested us anyway. First of all they took us to al-‘Alwiyya police station, where we stayed for an hour or less. From there we went to Intelligence. We were blindfolded and our hands were tied behind our backs. They put us in a small room where there were other detainees, altogether seventeen people. Then they took us one by one for interrogation. They made me sit on the floor. When I tried to speak, they said “Are you here to talk? Shut up, you are a terrorist. Just confess to being one of the Mahdi Army.” Then they poured cold water over me and applied electric shocks to my genitals. I was also beaten by several people with cables on my arms and back. Sometimes they would come in with sacks over their heads so that I wouldn’t be able to identify them. During the eight days we stayed there, I was taken twice to Ibn al-Nafis Hospital for Heart Diseases, close to al-Andalus Square. I have an artificial heart valve and have had a catheterization operation, and they did not let me have any medication. As a result of the beatings, my blood pressure went up and I had difficulty breathing, so they took me to the hospital for emergency treatment. Then we were transferred to the Major Crimes Directorate. We were interrogated again but not tortured. There was a secret informant who told them we were not the ones involved in the crime > [@](#): > > It happened last Thursday. A group of policemen arrived and made me get into their car. It was about six o’clock in the evening. They blindfolded me and tied my hands behind my back before I sat in the car. I remained blindfolded until this morning when they brought me to court. I was kept in a room with seven other people. On the first day they took me for interrogation. They asked me questions about the Mahdi Army and about various mortar attacks that had taken place, and whether I knew Haidar. They beat me with cables and a metal pipe and with their hands. They also beat me at around three o’clock in the morning after I had been taken back to the cell. Mostly I was tortured by falaqa. My parents don’t know where I am now. On the first day, I spent what money I had on food. On the second day, some of the guards gave us money to buy the food.161 > > ‘Ali showed Human Rights Watch four scars on his lower left arm, measuring some ten to fifteen centimeters long, which he said were the result of beatings with cables. He also said he had other marks on his back but declined to show these to Human Rights Watch since the interview was being conducted in the Major Crimes Room where police officials were present. Human Rights Watch attended his hearing later that day before the investigative judge, who asked him to remove his shirt and show him his back. This revealed what appeared to be fresh lacerations and welts to his upper back. The judge asked the detainee how he came to have these injuries or who had beaten him. ‘Ali replied, “I don’t know because I was blindfolded the whole time.” He appeared reluctant to repeat what he had told Human Rights Watch about his treatment in detention, and the judge did not refer him for a medical examination. He was ordered detained for a further week, apparently to give the police more time to apprehend the second suspect in the case. His file showed that he was being held in the custody of the Directorate of Ministry Security and Welfare. > [@](#): > > The majority of the detainees to whom Human Rights Watch spoke said that torture and ill-treatment under interrogation was routine. Some also said that the police also used violence against them at the time of arrest. The accounts of their treatment at the hands of the police were consistent to a high degree. Typically, detainees reported being blindfolded with their hands tied behind their back while undergoing interrogation.101 They said their interrogators or guards kicked, slapped and punched them, and beat them all over the body using hosepipes, wooden sticks, iron rods, and cables. Some of them bore visible traces of external trauma to the head, neck, arms, legs, and back when examined by Human Rights Watch. These traces appeared consistent with their accounts of having been repeatedly beaten. Several bore fresh bruises and lacerations, while others had scarring that appeared recent. In some cases, detainees also reported that their interrogators had subjected them to electric shocks, most commonly by having electric wires attached to their ears or genitals. So **Uzi** , at what point do you stand by and not do something when others are hurting or being killed? If you saw your neighbour being attacked on the street, what would you do? Close your curtains? Call the police? Go out and stop the attackers? Maybe the United States should invade Iraq and stop this abuse…oh right! They already have! Ooo, and how do they handle this abuse of prisoners? > [@](#): > > On June 29, the third day after the police carried out the arrests, U.S. soldiers from an Oregon Army National Guard unit on patrol in the area close to the Ministry of Interior’s compound witnessed Iraqi police abusing the detainees and made a decision to intervene. It was the only known case in which U.S. forces intervened to stop detainee abuse following the official transfer of sovereignty from the CPA to the Iraqi Interim Government. One of the battalion’s scouts took photographs of the scene through his rifle scope, showing at least two dozen detainees sitting on the ground, with their hands tied behind their back and blindfolded. Several of them were semi-clad, bearing what appeared to be “fresh welts and bruises” on their backs and legs. One was thought to be aged fourteen. > > -snip- > > However, the abuse and neglect was quite apparent. As we traveled from room to room prisoners were bound, blinded, and gagged. Many had terrible bruises and burns. One room contained hoses, broken lamps (electric shock), and chemicals of some variety > > -snip- > > They included that of Staff Sergeant Kevin Maries who, according to The Oregonian: > > reported that one prisoner lying facedown on the ground was struck repeatedly on the back with a rubber hose. Later, Marines watched another extended beating of a prisoner and took pictures through his spotting scope. A uniformed Iraqi policeman and civilian delivered a beating that was “more vicious and prolonged than previously observed,” Maries’ statement said. At one point, the prisoner’s bare feet were tied to a bar and elevated, and the guards beat his bare feet with a rubber hose > > -snip- > > According to press reports based on interviews with several of the U.S. soldiers on the scene, Lieutenant Colonel Dan Hendrickson, the battalion commander, then “radioed up the chain of command in the Army’s 1st Cavalry Division, relaying what he had seen and asking for instructions … It wasn’t long before the order came: **"Stand Down. Return the prisoners to the Iraqi authorities and leave the detention yard.”** So spare me the analogies about seeing your neighbours being beaten up by thugs-because that is exactly what is going on right now in Iraq, and the United States is allowing it to happen. New Zealand is more than happy to help out with humanitarian aid, they are more than happy to provide logistical support, but I’ll be dammed if our army stands and is led by one that allows this disgusting hypocritical bullshit to go on. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/135 "2005-02-24T11:49:48Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Question: > > What leftist leader of the United States has had so much derogatory remarks and hate directed towards him equal to that of President Bush. …I think that you’ve missed one of the main points of the thread… we don’t give a shit whether or not President Bush is a lefty or a righty, we are judging his preformance on his actions alone. Ask you a question-how many derogatory remarks and hate was directed towards the first President Bush? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/136 "2005-02-24T12:08:30Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > So, you are saying you’d help your neighbour if he was being beat up by thugs (this is assuming you can answer all the caveats of World Eater)? If this is supposed to make me say yes, so you can then say “HA that’s all Bush is doing” then all I can say is nice try. As far as many in Iran are concerned Bush IS the thug beating up the neighbour. > [@](#): > > I see. So, people thrown in prison camp in NK because they bad mouth a dead dictator is okay with you because NK has laws that are different than NZ? No it’s not. So how come Mr Bush decided Iraqi’s were more in need then North Korean’s? Does he have a specific order when it comes to who deserves democracy more? Does he intend to free them country by country, or will he free all the ones with valuable natural resources first and then move on to the others? > [@](#): > > If you had the choice of a nuclear armed US, or a nuclear armed Iran, as your neighbour which would you honestly pick? I’m sure that all the countries around Iran are just hoping that Iran gets the bomb, yep, I’m sure. :rolleyes: I don’t recall being given a choice. Well actually I do. NZ chose NOT to allow nuclear armed ships into our harbours. Our democratic choice was rewarded with being thrown out of ANZUS. > [@](#): > > To bad a significant portion of the world does nothing to protect the ‘people’ of those countries like Iraq and NK. The ‘country’ is only a line drawn on a map. The people in them are what matters. And while the country is protected the people in them are killed at the will of whatever monsters run the place. Just as well a significant portion of the world are not vigilantes because dearest George does not seem to be terribly popular with most of them. > [@](#): > > Or, they could democratize themselves and avoid the problem in the first place. How horrible for the people of those countries if their leaders actually allowed them a voice in their own affairs. Let’s see, what are Mr. Terrorist’s choices? Strap a bomb to myself and blow up myself and my fellow citizens, OR pick up a shovel, broom, hammer, or other constructive tool, and start cleaning up the mess generated by removal of, what everyone agrees, was a brutal dictator ie. Saddam. Some of them seem to be a bit concerned about being occupied by foreign forces. > [@](#): > > And frankly if guys like Kim Jung feel a little worried because of GW that is more than the UN has ever done to him. When you paint a lunatic into a corner don’t be surprised if he fights back. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/137 "2005-02-24T12:18:19Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …on the 25th of April every year, New Zealanders and Australians commemorate ANZAC day, to remember the events at Gallipoli in 1915. Gallipoli was a turning point in our nation-we lost nearly 3000 people during the eight month campaign, a devestating amount of people for a country this small. Our nation learned a harsh lesson-and that lesson was be very careful entrusting the lives of your soldiers to Generals from other nations. Our soldiers are well trained, they are brave, and if called upon to fight, they most certainly would. But we would only do it when we trust the commanders leading us, and we have faith in the statergy guiding the campaign. And our soldiers remember Dieppe. The past is the past. Unless you want me to bring up the only reason NZ isn’t part of Japan now is because the US was there to stop them, then lets leave the past there. > [@](#): > > So if you consider that the US are being seen as empire builders, and a multi-national force supported by local governments and populations would hinder that thinking, wouldn’t you think it would be logical for the US to have handed over control to the United Nations early in the occupation? Why doesn’t the UN take control if they feel so strongly about it? > [@](#): > > …oooh, your right, we should do something about things like this… > > Maybe you’d like to read this [newly commisioned 94 page report on torture in Iraq](http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iraq0105/) … Yes, someone should do something about it. Isn’t that what the UN is for? And do you think that everything after a war is cured overnight? What people don’t understand, and this is one of the main reasons I am against this war, is that in order for democracy to work in the sort of culture in Iraq it would take a generation of education to get people to understand why democracy is better for them than the leadership of the local mullah or strong man. Ain’t going to happen given the quick fix thinking in the West. > [@](#): > > So **Uzi** , at what point do you stand by and not do something when others are hurting or being killed? If you saw your neighbour being attacked on the street, what would you do? Close your curtains? Call the police? Go out and stop the attackers? Maybe the United States should invade Iraq and stop this abuse…oh right! They already have! Ooo, and how do they handle this abuse of prisoners? Get in there and stop it. What other solution do you have? Stand by and hope for the best? > [@](#): > > So spare me the analogies about seeing your neighbours being beaten up by thugs-because that is exactly what is going on right now in Iraq, and the United States is allowing it to happen. New Zealand is more than happy to help out with humanitarian aid, they are more than happy to provide logistical support, but I’ll be dammed if our army stands and is led by one that allows this disgusting hypocritical bullshit to go on. Ever thought that the US has bitten off more than it can chew (even though they won’t admit it themselves) at this point and one of the reasons this shit is going on is because they can’t be everywhere all the time? Do you seriously think that Americans want people to be tortured? That the typical soldier wants people to be tortured? Barring the occasional fuckasses, I don’t think this is true. If the Nations of the world want this to stop then all they have to do is step up to the plate. They won’t because they are more interested in seeing the US fail than in helping out the people in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/138 "2005-02-24T12:29:49Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > If this is supposed to make me say yes, so you can then say “HA that’s all Bush is doing” then all I can say is nice try. As far as many in Iran are concerned Bush IS the thug beating up the neighbour. Your perspective is wonderful as you think Saddam and GW are one and the same. > [@](#): > > No it’s not. So how come Mr Bush decided Iraqi’s were more in need then North Korean’s? Does he have a specific order when it comes to who deserves democracy more? Does he intend to free them country by country, or will he free all the ones with valuable natural resources first and then move on to the others? Probably he chose Iraq because 1) He thinks it is in the US’s self interest to be there and keep a stable region (not that I agree), 2) it is better to fight terrorists there than at home. I really don’t know as I haven’t talked to the man. Keep in mind that the US is concerned about NK, too. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall being given a choice. Well actually I do. NZ chose NOT to allow nuclear armed ships into our harbours. Our democratic choice was rewarded with being thrown out of ANZUS. But you really don’t see a difference between the US and Iran having nukes, do you? I feel for you, I really do. > [@](#): > > Just as well a significant portion of the world are not vigilantes because dearest George does not seem to be terribly popular with most of them. Most of the world sits by and watchs things like what happens in NK, Sudan, et al. People are a sorry lot and those that are comfy don’t seem to want to do the things necessary to give everyone the chance to be comfy, too. > [@](#): > > Some of them seem to be a bit concerned about being occupied by foreign forces. These would be aliens from the planet Rigel, I assume? Oh, wait a minute. These would be other people on the same planet as them. Again, lines drawn on a map should mean nothing when it comes to helping someone. I don’t know why we are so afraid to cross them because the bad guys don’t hesitate to do so at need. > [@](#): > > When you paint a lunatic into a corner don’t be surprised if he fights back. I’m glad someone painted Hitler into a corner eventually (you did catch my link to the BBC site regarding the interveiw with the prison guard out of NK, did you?). ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/139 "2005-02-24T12:44:39Z")
this is getting further and further from the point, but I’ll play for now. > [@Uzi](#): > > Remind me not to buy a house next to you. Sounds good to me. > [@](#): > > I’m quite sure if you saw burglers breaking into my house you’d debate with yourself as to if it is your own best interest to call the police and get involved. Calling the cops and personally confronting the burglers are two different things. > [@](#): > > Hey, I could be defaulting on my bills and they could be collection agents, You deny that possibility exists? > [@](#): > > right? And if my house caught fire, as long as the wind is blowing the other direction away from your house, you’d do nothing, because after all it is none of your concern that my house burns down. Why _would_ it be my concern if your house burns down? FWIW I would call the fire dept. > [@](#): > > Why get invovled as there is no benefit to you. You’re totally missing the point with all these inane comparisons. Iraq is costing us SHITLOADS of money. This isn’t a situation where it costs nothing to intervene (pick up phone call cops, or fire dept), and that is the total difference. > [@](#): > > Telling the World Court to fuck off is of no concern of yours. It doesn’t affect you. You’re not being told to fuck off. Maybe they deserve to be told to fuck off. Maybe they owe money to somebody? Kofi Anan for example. Or is it Kofi Anan paying them money? In any case, it doesn’t matter and is no concern of yours until it affects you personally. Lets here no more about it then, hm’kay? So because I question my country throwing gobs of cash at Iraq, when Americans are in need, I forfeit my right to worry about things that affect the world? > [@](#): > > Maybe the Geneva Conventions are being flaunted and people are being held on Orwelliean tips. Maybe they owe some drug debt to a bunch of enraged bookies and if you got involved those drug dealers would come around and bother you? Or shit, they could even be terrorists and their buddies could come around to blow you up! This is just stupid, I don’t even know what you’re rambling about. > [@](#): > > Back to your comment on health care: Why would health matter to you at all? Unless you expected all the billions you quote for yourself, that is. Well, that health care could be going to fix that guy being beat up by the hoodlums on the street if we follow our little scenario to its end. If you couldn’t be bothered to lift a finger to stop the beating, why would you care if he got health care to cure him after the fact? This is so moronic I see no point in responding, but I’ll say this. This whole neighbor analogy (besides being totally fucking stupid) is incorrect. Think of it more of a guy getting beat up in a area _on the other side_ town. > [@](#): > > Or for anyone else given how you view assisting others. You’re so in to helping others? Why don’t you send me some money. I’m serious, my email is in my profile. How about $5,000? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162/140 "2005-02-24T12:58:57Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Ever thought that the US has bitten off more than it can chew (even though they won’t admit it themselves) at this point and one of the reasons this shit is going on is because they can’t be everywhere all the time? One of the big fuck ups of this war was not sending enough troops. We have a cocky Rurmsfeld to thank for that. [quote] Do you seriously think that Americans want people to be tortured? That the typical soldier wants people to be tortured? Barring the occasional fuckasses, I don’t think this is true. > [@](#): > > If the Nations of the world want this to stop then all they have to do is step up to the plate. Yes, once troops of other nations are there, all abuse will end. :rolleyes: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/4290435.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4290435.stm) (British solders found guilty of prisoner abuse) > [@](#): > > They won’t because they are more interested in seeing the US fail than in helping out the people in Iraq. Or they choose to abstain from the very nation building we like to do that ends up being a money pit, and puts us in greater danger. We told many of these countries to shove it at the beginning of this thing, and I think its ludicrous to expect them to come offer assistance at this point. I say good for them, they’re smart enough to stay out Iraq, to bad we weren’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-bush-shut-the-fuck-up/291162.md?page=8)