# George H W Bush and atheists **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233 "2005-09-24T17:50:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/21 "2005-09-25T16:11:08Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > For what it’s worth, it has never been claimed that the purported quote was in the context of a sit-down interview with _Up With Atheism! Weekly_ or anything like that; the story is that in 1987 Robert Sherman with American Atheist Press and _American Atheist_ magazine was attending a press conference at O’Hare airport; he was basically one of many reporters posing various questions to the then-Vice President. See [here](http://www.robsherman.com/projects/statechurchsep/newdow/original.htm#Summary) for details (scroll down to “Example 1”). I can’t find much on this guy Rob Sherman except from his own web site. And from what I can see, I would not call him a credible source-- he’s a guy with an agenda. If anyone has access to the letters in the archives, that migh shed some light on the subject. It just makes no sense that someone as educated as GHWB is would say that atheists aren’t citizens. No sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/22 "2005-09-25T16:18:46Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > We have the purported quote, but I think we all agree that it is not ironclad proof, and the sources could fairly be called less than neutral. If it had been a few of the more well known and mainstream newspapers I would be more confident. Without any consideration as to what we each think of either individual Bush, or what we think either one might say, I was just hoping for something more indisputable and concrete. Well, the link **MEBuckner** provided says the following: > [@Rob Sherman's site](#): > > Subsequent to Mr. Bush become President, the late Jon Murray, President of American Atheists, wrote to the White House to express his concern about the verbal exchange and that the phrase, “Under God,” had created doubt in the President of the United States as to the citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists. If the phrase, “Under God,” had such an effect on the President of the United States, surely it would have a similar effect on Americans throughout the country. > > White House Counsel Mr. C. Boyden Gray responded in writing to Mr. Murray by saying that Mr. Bush stood by his statements at O’Hare Airport and was entitled to any perspective that he wanted regarding atheists. > > The letters which were exchanged between Mr. Murray and Mr. Bush are archived at the George Bush Presidential Library, Attn: Archives, 1000 George Bush Drive West, College Station, Texas 77845, as Item # CF 01193-002. I wonder – if somebody writes to the George Bush Presidential Library requesting copies of that item, will they provide the copies? ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/23 "2005-09-26T03:46:10Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I can’t find much on this guy Rob Sherman except from his own web site. And from what I can see, I would not call him a credible source-- he’s a guy with an agenda. If anyone has access to the letters in the archives, that migh shed some light on the subject. It just makes no sense that someone as educated as GHWB is would say that atheists aren’t citizens. No sense at all. If you read more at **MEBuckner** ’s link, you’ll see that GHWB repeated an attack on atheists (Example three) at least once more. There’s more than adequate reason to believe that Bush hated atheists to the point of not considering them valid citizens. There are no grounds that I can see to suggest (as some have done here) that Sherman manufactured the quotations then dared to use them in an _amicus curiae_ brief to the Appeals Court for the Ninth Circuit! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/24 "2005-09-26T03:51:55Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > If you read more at **MEBuckner** ’s link, you’ll see that GHWB repeated an attack on atheists (Example three) at least once more. That’s a quote from Bush _fils_. It is, however, a patently absurd statement. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/25 "2005-09-26T04:15:22Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Well, the link **MEBuckner** provided says the following: > > I wonder – if somebody writes to the George Bush Presidential Library requesting copies of that item, will they provide the copies? Fyi, here is how to do it: > [@FAQ for the place in question](#): > > Can I order reproductions by mail? > > Yes. Bush Library staff will provide reproductions of specified records and historical material at the reproduction fee set by NARA (currently $.50 per page). Advance payment is required for large orders. We send mail order copies by regular mail. Alternate shipping arrangements can be made at the researcher’s expense. A request for reproduction of available records must include reasonable specificity. The Bush Library staff cannot undertake extensive searches or make subjective judgments on the “best” material related to a topic. The library will photocopy the entire contents of any folder a requestor can cite from a finding aid and will photocopy specific material cited in the library’s list of processed presidential records and donated historical materials, or any specific item available for research, provided the staff can easily locate it. > > \ > George Bush Presidential Library > 1000 George Bush Drive West > College Station, TX 77845 > > General Phone: (979) 691-4000 > Archival Reference: (979) 691-4041 > Archives Facsimile: (979) 691-4030 > Audio/Visual Reference: (979) 691-4025 > Audio/Visual Facsimile: (979) 691-4020 > > e-mail: [Library.Bush@nara.gov](mailto:Library.Bush@nara.gov) ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/26 "2005-09-26T04:19:17Z")
Forgot to cite: [Linky](http://bushlibrary.tamu.edu/faqs.html#Ordering%20Reproductions). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/27 "2005-09-26T16:52:09Z")
Bush the Elder can believe whatever he wants; it’s a free country. I tend to doubt he said it, but wouldn’t be terribly surprised to see or hear proof that he did. In any event, I would remind him, his idiot son and everyone else of the Framers’ wisdom in providing that: _…no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States._ Art. VI. To say nothing of: _Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…_ Amendment I. The United States Constitution. Read it and heed it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/28 "2005-09-26T17:15:28Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > If you read more at **MEBuckner** ’s link, you’ll see that GHWB repeated an attack on atheists (Example three) at least once more. Show me an article in the NYT or the WashPost or any major newpaper that contends that these quotes are true, and I’ll believe them. As it stands, they only come from a very biased source. > [@](#): > > There’s more than adequate reason to believe that Bush hated atheists to the point of not considering them valid citizens. Circular reasoning. The only evidence is from this guy’s site. There’s every reason to believe that Bush is smart enough to realize that anyone born here is a citizen regardless of his or her beliefs. > [@](#): > > There are no grounds that I can see to suggest (as some have done here) that Sherman manufactured the quotations then dared to use them in an _amicus curiae_ brief to the Appeals Court for the Ninth Circuit! Why not? He seems like a borderline nut case to me. Anyone can file an \*amicus \*brief, and AFAIK, there is no factual checking of the brief before it is entered into the record. Sherman may have misquoted Bush and believed he was correct about it. We just don’t know. Anything like this, if it really happened, would have been a scandal, and the major news services would have picked it up, even if it was reported on page 27. Show us the quote from a major (non-editorial) news source and we’ll say “case closed”. Until then, the assumption is that that quote was fabricated. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/29 "2005-09-26T17:22:25Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Until then, the assumption is that that quote was fabricated. Until then, _your_ assumption is that the quote was fabricated. Is what I think you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/30 "2005-09-26T17:52:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Anything like this, if it really happened, would have been a scandal In a country where roughly one-third to half the population believes in the Bible as literal truth? I wish. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/31 "2005-09-26T19:03:45Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Until then, _your_ assumption is that the quote was fabricated. Is what I think you mean. If you want to get into the nuance here, the best we can say at this point is that we don’t know whether ther quote is correct or not. There simply isn’t enough objecctive evidence that it is true. If we are forced to choose only between “true” and “false”, the GQ answer has to be “false” since there isn’t enough evidence to prove “true”. If you want to debate the veracity, open a GD thread, but the cite given thus far wouldn’t stand up to a debate there. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/32 "2005-09-26T23:11:39Z")
I disagree. Until proven otherwise, it appears you can physically walk into 1000 George Bush Drive West College Station, TX 77845 and ask for document # CF 01193-002. After all, it is a very easy thing to test, not just a reliance on a magazine article. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/33 "2005-09-26T23:21:26Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Anything like this, if it really happened, would have been a scandal, and the major news services would have picked it up, even if it was reported on page 27. Would this have been a scandal in 1987? I’m not convinced it would have been. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/34 "2005-09-26T23:50:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Would this have been a scandal in 1987? I’m not convinced it would have been. Possibly not a scandal, but something you would have expected to have been reported. I’ve searched all the major newspapers from the weeks, even months after this, and can find nothing. Not even an editorial. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/35 "2005-09-26T23:59:22Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I disagree. Until proven otherwise, it appears you can physically walk into 1000 George Bush Drive West > College Station, TX 77845 > > and ask for document # CF 01193-002. > > After all, it is a very easy thing to test, not just a reliance on a magazine article. Then do it, and show us. But consider that the reporter might have misunderstood or even misquoted GHWB. In that case, GHWB can still “stand by everything he said” and still not have said what was reported. Show us the letter and the exact wording. Until then, I don’t accept it. It’s just what some guy with an agenda is telling us. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/36 "2005-09-27T00:05:12Z")
Walk from Baltimore to Texas? No. But shall I call later and find out how much it would cost to get a copy of the letter? (fifty cents per page, but how many pages?) Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/37 "2005-09-27T00:54:13Z")
The vice-president’s schedule is a matter of historical record, so it should be possible to confirm whether he was even in Chicago on that date. If he was, the New York Times may have published a transcript. The fact that **samclem** didn’t find any mention of this in his search also makes me doubt the story. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/38 "2005-09-27T01:49:50Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Walk from Baltimore to Texas? > > No. > > But shall I call later and find out how much it would cost to get a copy of the letter? (fifty cents per page, but how many pages?) Yes. Knock yourself out. If you can prove something, I might steal your idea and publish an expose of GHWB in the NYT. I smell a Pulitzer!! Does anyone else??? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/39 "2005-09-27T02:11:18Z")
**Scott** , I think Sherman’s site said there was a two-year backlog. But I guess you might as well try. Do you know how to file a FOIA request? ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2005, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233/40 "2005-09-27T07:36:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Show us the letter and the exact wording. Until then, I don’t accept it. It’s just what some guy with an agenda is telling us. Since we are asked to choose between Sherman’s “agenda” and yours, I choose his. He was a reporter for a legitimate publication. You, like me, are just posters on a message board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-and-atheists/323233.md?page=3)