# George H.W. Bush doesn't get it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264 "2005-09-18T21:42:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/21 "2005-09-18T23:05:52Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > However, ex-Presidents speaking in a capacity such as this, people that represent the whole of the country, can be taken to task for such a phrasing. A phrasing that I view as marginalizing a whole class of people, fellow Americans, and his constituants. If you say so. I think you’re looking for things to complain about and taking offense without a good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/22 "2005-09-18T23:09:12Z")
Look: The guy is out there volunteering his time and effort to help the people of Louisiana, just as he volunteered his time to help the people affected by the Tsunami earlier. And you want to nitpick at him and complain that his use of the word ‘neighbor’ is divisive? He’s not the one being divisive here. You are. You’re trying to pick a partisan fight over an irrelevant, nonexistent issue. You want to play the class warfare game in the middle of a situation where people are just trying to help. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/23 "2005-09-18T23:12:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Can you offer some other symptoms, then? > > Of course, he’s not the President anyway and I’m not especially worried about “his condition,” but that’s another thing. Um, terminal elitism? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/24 "2005-09-18T23:13:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > :rolleyes: It was a paraphrase. :dubious: Well, really it was a _re_phrasing. 😉 But my point was that the substitution is an easy one to make subconsciously, and that at least one poster in the thread had already done so. I think that indicates there’s at least _some_ significance to the choice of possessive pronoun. ---
**Author:** ![Bytor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bytor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytor)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/25 "2005-09-18T23:18:20Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Look: The guy is out there volunteering his time and effort to help the people of Louisiana, just as he volunteered his time to help the people affected by the Tsunami earlier. > > And you want to nitpick at him and complain that his use of the word ‘neighbor’ is divisive? > > He’s not the one being divisive here. You are. You’re trying to pick a partisan fight over an irrelevant, nonexistent issue. You want to play the class warfare game in the middle of a situation where people are just trying to help. I understand what you are getting at, but the second we stop scrutinizing subtle points such as these, we are at the total mercy of potential horrors…that did not come out right, hmm…I’m not supporting this case (necessarily) but I am supporting the right to have this issue heard publicly. Once debated in a public forum, we as a people can decide if it has merit. I’m not accusing anybody of anything, I’m merely suggesting however that there is a chance that Dubya, realizing his polls are low asked his father to get out there and have the Bush name do something positive. In the event that this may or may not be what is goingon, I feel talking about thsi is justified, providing we all stay on topic and debate properly. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/26 "2005-09-18T23:19:21Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Look: The guy is out there volunteering his time and effort to help the people of Louisiana, just as he volunteered his time to help the people affected by the Tsunami earlier. In one of those rare, interdimensional conflations where alternate realities coincide temporarily, I must say I agree with Mr. **Stone** on this point. I have no idea how much public response having two former POTUSes with such differing ideologies and legacies join together must garner, but I’d wager it’s considerable. The effort is laudable. The word choice in the PSA was still wrong, though. ---
**Author:** ![Snaggletooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Snaggletooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snaggletooth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/27 "2005-09-18T23:20:26Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Am I the only one who thinks this phrasing is another example of the Bush family’s inability to divest themselves from this “us and them” mentality. It’s embarassing I am sure your not the only one. I would disagree, “Help our Neighbors in the Gulf Coast” sounds like a good ol southern thing, But it would not matter what he said for you bush haters don’t get me wrong I love Bush haters great for comedy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/28 "2005-09-18T23:21:45Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > He’s not the one being divisive here. You are. You’re trying to pick a partisan fight over an irrelevant, nonexistent issue. You want to play the class warfare game in the middle of a situation where people are just trying to help. Luckily I’m not an ex-President so I have a little more leeway than he does. I suppose you can just shut up and excuse things like this during such a dire situation, but I’d rather not be jingoistic. I don’t personally see that calling out your leaders for mistakes is ever out of place, many may argue that in times of great need it becomes even more important that you hold the leadership to a high standard. I think it’s indicative, and I see nothing to be gained from ignoring that. I’m of the opinion that had he taken an unslanted tact and said “help our fellow Americans” he may have subtly encouraged more donations by making it personal to all the nationalistic folks. But I suppose it’d be in bad taste to suggest such a thing in this great time of need and suffering. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/29 "2005-09-18T23:26:36Z")
I simply don’t get your point. I see absolutely nothing wrong with saying ‘let’s help our neighbors’. This is standard phraseology. It’s accurate. It speaks to a charitable impulse that we help those around us. Maybe it’s because I’m Canadian and this is some obscure U.S. thing or something, or maybe it’s because we rednecks use the phrase ‘helping our neighbors’ a lot or something. I don’t know, but I do know your argument baffles me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/30 "2005-09-18T23:29:21Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > But my point was that the substitution is an easy one to make subconsciously, and that at least one poster in the thread had already done so. I think that indicates there’s at least _some_ significance to the choice of possessive pronoun. Except that I didn’t make any subconscious substitution, so that doesn’t prove your point. Please misread someone else’s comments. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/31 "2005-09-18T23:40:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Except that I didn’t make any subconscious substitution, so that doesn’t prove your point. Please misread someone else’s comments. So it was an _intentional_ misquote, which still proves my point -and perhaps strengthens it. You must understand that the pronoun swap is important, or you wouldn’t have made it. Calling it a _paraphrase_ is just dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/32 "2005-09-18T23:43:54Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I simply don’t get your point. I see absolutely nothing wrong with saying ‘let’s help our neighbors’. This is standard phraseology. It’s accurate. It speaks to a charitable impulse that we help those around us. > > Maybe it’s because I’m Canadian and this is some obscure U.S. thing or something, or maybe it’s because we rednecks use the phrase ‘helping our neighbors’ a lot or something. I don’t know, but I do know your argument baffles me. I’m urban and American, and it doesn’t make any sense to me either. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/33 "2005-09-18T23:48:26Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I simply don’t get your point. I see absolutely nothing wrong with saying ‘let’s help our neighbors’. This is standard phraseology. It’s accurate. It speaks to a charitable impulse that we help those around us. Hey, if you don’t get the argument, fine. If you disagree with the premise, I respect that. Frankly thats the whole point of a debate. But 'm coming down on you because you made the implication that it was in bad form to critisize the ex-Pres when he’s doing something humanitarian. That, to be honest, is bull. That mentality gave Dubya a free pass for an entire term after 9/11. Times of need are just as valid a time, even moreso often, to call out something you see as wrong. If you want to argue that his phrasing was him being “folksy”, ok. I don’t personally believe that an ex-Pres speaking in a representative fashion such as this is allowed to be folksy in manner which can be construed as exclusive. I certainly think it’s valid to critisize him for it, now and at any time. Do I think he did more harm than good? …No. Do I think he sincerely wants to help these poeple? …Yeah, he probably does. Do I think his choice of words is worth taking notice of? … You better believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/34 "2005-09-19T00:00:06Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Hey, if you don’t get the argument, fine. If you disagree with the premise, I respect that. Frankly thats the whole point of a debate. But 'm coming down on you because you made the implication that it was in bad form to critisize the ex-Pres when he’s doing something humanitarian. That, to be honest, is bull. That mentality gave Dubya a free pass for an entire term after 9/11. Times of need are just as valid a time, even moreso often, to call out something you see as wrong. I’m not saying that it’s wrong to criticise him if you can find a legitimate criticism. I’m saying it’s wrong to take a microscope and try to parse his sentences in a way that lets you come up with some manufactured outrage. Criticising the use of the phrase ‘helping our neighbors’ strikes me as being in that category. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/35 "2005-09-19T00:53:40Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I’m saying it’s wrong to take a microscope and try to parse his sentences in a way that lets you come up with some manufactured outrage. I agree. What does the OP want, moral support for his pre-existing assumption? He should grow up, already. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/36 "2005-09-19T00:58:06Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > So it was an _intentional_ misquote, which still proves my point -and perhaps strengthens it. You must understand that the pronoun swap is important, or you wouldn’t have made it. Calling it a _paraphrase_ is just dishonest. Oh for fuck’s sake. It’s not a misquote. It wasn’t a quote at all, attempted or otherwise. Read the entire damn sentence instead of just “‘your neighbors’” and perhaps you’ll understand what I was saying. Maybe you won’t, but either way, the misunderstanding isn’t on my part. > [@Me](#): > > Unless you’re giving to the Red Cross to help _yourself_ after the hurricane… you’re giving to help ‘your neighbors.’ Incidentally, a paraphrase is “A restatement of a text or passage in another form or other words, often to clarify meaning.” So yes, I was paraphrasing. I was discussing the sentence as if Bush and myself were not involved, and it applied only to **Omniscient**. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/37 "2005-09-19T01:51:46Z")
Let’s see, the point of this debate is to berate a former President for rallying Americans in a time of crisis. Even going so far as to call him a dumbass. Well, hmmm… Trying to think of a polite way to say this. There are people in this world who are doing something constructive for hurricane relief and then there are those who complain about it. If I was going to call someone a dumbass it wouldn’t be former President Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/38 "2005-09-19T02:17:04Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Well, being that it was a divisive political topic, you’d not expect their to be any “we and us”. Not a good analogy for a humanitarian and economic disaster such as this. With the divisive political climate I don’t think people in California holding up signs saying “Fuck Middle America” would have considered Colorado, Texas, or Iowa as neighbors in a friendly manner. Those who deride Bush’s use of the word neighbor are just looking for something to get pissed off about. Referring to states such as Mississippi and Louisiana as our “neighbors” seems accurate to me and not in the least bit divisive. Those who are bitching and moaning about the choice of words used in the PSA are going out of their way to become indignant over nothing. It’s really quite silly. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/39 "2005-09-19T02:20:18Z")
So, the OP surely must think that Jesus was being especially offensive in referring to one Samaritan as a neighbor. :rolleyes: Omniscient: You’re flailing around for something to gripe about. There are millions, at least, of actual issues. This isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264/40 "2005-09-19T02:41:34Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Luckily I’m not an ex-President so I have a little more leeway than he does. Considering how close GHW Bush and Clinton are these days, says a little about how truely out of touch you are with reality. This is GHW Bush and Clinton! Teaming up yet again! Well, you score whatever points you think you can and let the adults handle the rest. > [@omniscient](#): > > I suppose you can just shut up and excuse things like this during such a dire situation, but I’d rather not be jingoistic. I don’t personally see that calling out your leaders for mistakes is ever out of place, many may argue that in times of great need it becomes even more important that you hold the leadership to a high standard. Jingoistic? For mentioning the word that shall never be said? NEIGHBOR!?!? Christ, you really are out of touch, aren’t you? Please don’t tell me you meant Bush and Clinton when you were talking about calling out our leaders. Oh, never mind. I forgot this was a little diatribe against Bush. You go, you! > [@omniscient](#): > > I think it’s indicative, and I see nothing to be gained from ignoring that. Indicative you’re an idiot. I’d call you a douchebag, but that would be an insu…fuck it, you know the rest. > [@omniscient](#): > > I’m of the opinion that had he taken an unslanted tact and said “help our fellow Americans” he may have subtly encouraged more donations by making it personal to all the nationalistic folks. Nope, just to assholes like you. The rest of us, regardless of our spats in Pit threads, have done what we can to help out our neighbors. Sorry, our countrymen. Er, countrywomen. Er, fellow citizens. Shit, some were illegal immigrants, so maybe not citizens. Fuck! Your rules are too constricting. Suffice it to say, we helped some people. But it saddens me it was all pointless since we didn’t use the right phrases. You really need to learn to get those flyers with the appropriate terminology out to us faster. > [@omniscient](#): > > But I suppose it’d be in bad taste to suggest such a thing in this great time of need and suffering. :rolleyes: It would be in bad taste to try to make your mark bashing the president by doing an end-around on 2 previous presidents raising a ton of money for people that are suffering more than your mommy and daddy will ever let you experience. Ya know what? You really are a fucking douchebag. Fuck you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-h-w-bush-doesnt-get-it/322264.md?page=3)