# George, just admit it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 16, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903 "2006-05-16T00:13:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/61 "2006-05-16T19:10:51Z")
There _may_ have been violations of TX and AL State Law related to the use of Natl. Guard equipment in connection with the trumped-up drug angle, but again, as the tanks were for the protection of ATF agents, I’m not sure how the Posse Comitatus act of 1878, a Federal Law, comes into it. I can’t find any indication TX or AL pressed the matter, or even if their laws were actually found to have been broken. ---
**Author:** ![Missy2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Missy2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Missy2U)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/62 "2006-05-16T19:29:00Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] So you believe the ATF wanted Abrams tanks for which: administrative support, or personnel transport? [/QUOTE] You know as well as I do that that’s the ONLY way to get down the Dan Ryan these days. 😉 Thanks for the links - bringing them home to show hubby - we got into a whole big thing about this last night after the speech… ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/63 "2006-05-16T19:45:10Z")
[QUOTE=Debaser] I’m pissed about anybody who is here illegally. My brother has a roomate who is illegal Irish. He came on a temp workers visa. He got a ID number to use like a social security number. He’s been illegal for years now since his visa expired. He works a Union job making 30-something dollars an hour. He gets jobs sometimes that cause American union workers to be laid off (they are very competetive for good jobsites). He uses his ID social security number to collect unemployment when he gets a layoff. This sucks. He should be arrested and deported back to Ireland. [/QUOTE] Have you reported him? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/64 "2006-05-16T19:45:30Z")
[QUOTE=Blalron] I love how all of a sudden this becomes an important issue for Bush after six years of being President and ignoring the border. Does anybody believe that this is anything other than a publicity stunt? [/QUOTE] Note the total lack of any momentum towards cracking down on the folks who _hire_ illegal immigrants. Yeah, it’s a stunt. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/65 "2006-05-16T19:53:50Z")
According to the Wikipedia article on [Waco](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege), the tanks were operated by FBI agents. I don’t know what cite they used to support that claim, so it deserves verification. I know the Branch Davidians claimed they were being fired upon by agents in helicopters, but the pilots of those helicopters denied during testimony that any shots were fired from their vehicles. Should the above hold up, once again, I see no evidence that military personnel or equipment were used in a manner that violated the Posse Comitatus act. If any laws were violated, the would have to be TX and AL laws. Again, I can’t find more about that. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/66 "2006-05-16T19:55:12Z")
> [@](#): > > as the tanks were for the protection of ATF agents Yeah. But only if one accepts at face value the Danforth Report. But it was widely reported by the major news sources, that the Danforth Report was a piece of self-serving garbage which reached a pre-determined conclusion. [http://www.waco93.com/Danforth-finalreport.pdf](http://www.waco93.com/Danforth-finalreport.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/67 "2006-05-16T20:01:16Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] According to the Wikipedia article on [Waco](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege), the tanks were operated by FBI agents. I don’t know what cite they used to support that claim, so it deserves verification. [/QUOTE] Well, let’s assume for the moment that the tanks were indeed operated by FBI agents (this is also what the Danforth Report claims) and put aside the legal technicalities. Is there any morally supportable reason for using tanks to penetrate a building full of U.S. citizens in preparation to merely serve an arrest warrant? And then fill the structure with the massive quantities of CS tear “gas” that they did? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/68 "2006-05-16T20:01:34Z")
[QUOTE=Pazu] Have you reported him? [/QUOTE] No. For starters I wouldn’t even begin to know how to. I don’t have any faith in the ability of our existing system to do anything if I did report him. Finally, I don’t want or need the aggravation that would result from me getting involved. The government already knows where he lives. He gets unemployment and pays taxes! It’s not like he’s working for cash under the table. He’s in a union. They are big on paperwork. The government doesn’t have a problem finding illegals. They simply don’t have the will to do anything about them. Some towns now have designated zones where illegals can gather and be found by employers! Finding illegals isn’t a problem. The problem is that the government lacks the political will to do anything about them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/69 "2006-05-16T20:02:07Z")
So in other words you have no evidence that military personel were active in the raid on Waco. Disparaging the Danforth Report does not actually constitute evidence, you know. I’ll never understand why so many people ever got so upset that a bunch of pedophile worshippers decided to kill themselves. Good riddance, I say. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/70 "2006-05-16T20:04:10Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] Yeah. But only if one accepts at face value the Danforth Report. But it was widely reported by the major news sources, that the Danforth Report was a piece of self-serving garbage which reached a pre-determined conclusion. [http://www.waco93.com/Danforth-finalreport.pdf](http://www.waco93.com/Danforth-finalreport.pdf) [/QUOTE] What part of the report is being disputed? You appear to be claiming that the tanks were being operated by military personnel, and perhaps further for purposes other than protecting the FBI agents as they used the tanks to punch holes in the wall and deliver teargas. My understanding has been that the main points of the dispute were whether or not the FBI fired first, used excessive force, and used incendiary devices that started the fire. Leaving that aside, has anyone seriously challenged the testimony of FBI and military officers that the military equipment was used in a way that violated the Posse Comitatus act? Do you have anything beyond your speculation that FBI agents lack the training necessary to operate a tank to support your claims? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/71 "2006-05-16T20:05:23Z")
Sorry, “used in a way that **did not** violate the Posse Comitatus act” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/72 "2006-05-16T20:06:05Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] Well, let’s assume for the moment that the tanks were indeed operated by FBI agents (this is also what the Danforth Report claims) and put aside the legal technicalities. Is there any morally supportable reason for using tanks to penetrate a building full of U.S. citizens in preparation to merely serve an arrest warrant? And then fill the structure with the massive quantities of CS tear “gas” that they did? [/QUOTE] Yes. They needed to get that scumbag out of the building and they needed to protect their own officers from the child-murdering loonies who worshipped him. What’s wrong with tear gas, by the way? You don’t actually think the “govermnet started the fire” do you? Are you that far gone down the conspiracy path? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/73 "2006-05-16T20:08:18Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I’ll never understand why so many people ever got so upset that a bunch of pedophile worshippers decided to kill themselves. Good riddance, I say. [/QUOTE] You are woefully misinformed about the nature of the activities for which the ATF was trying to serve the warrants on Koresh. Ya might wanna read the damn things before repeating your nonsense again. You might also take a clue from the fact that the ATF was the lead federal law enforcement agency there. The charter of the ATF does not encompass either child abuse, or underage sex offenses. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/74 "2006-05-16T20:13:29Z")
They _were_ armed to the teeth, though, so I see nothing inappropriate about ATF involvement. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/75 "2006-05-16T20:17:55Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] You are woefully misinformed about the nature of the activities for which the ATF was trying to serve the warrants on Koresh. Ya might wanna read the damn things before repeating your nonsense again. You might also take a clue from the fact that the ATF was the lead federal law enforcement agency there. The charter of the ATF does not encompass either child abuse, or underage sex offenses. [/QUOTE] I didn’t say anything about why the warrant was being served. I didn’t say it had anything to do with Koresh being a pedophile. I know why the warrant was served. I think they could have found a better way to do it. That still didn’t make it OK for Koresh and his followers to start shooting at federal agents and it’s not the reason they died. If Koresh had just obeyed the warrant and given himself up, there wouldn’t have been any problem. My comment about Koresh being a child molestor had nothing to do with any beliefs about why the warrant was issued. I was just wondering why anyone had any _sympathy_ for him or his followers. They are the ones who chose to kill their own children and themselves. How does that make Clinton and Reno evil? (The raid was planned under Bush Sr, by the way)? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/76 "2006-05-16T20:24:07Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] You don’t actually think the “govermnet started the fire” do you? [/QUOTE] Indirectly, yes. The ATF and FBI was warned several times about the intensely flammable nature of the volume of CS tear “gas” which they poured into the structure by several DOD advisers. This “gas,” which isn’t a gas at all, but a very fine powder, is highly flammable - particularly when used in such high concentrations. So it certainly added to intensity of the conflagration. I do not believe it was the intent of the government to send these people to a fiery death, but certain of the government acts increased the possibility of the final outcome and when the fire did start, increased its severity. And a couple additional points about your comment I quoted previously - the apparent concern I have for a “bunch of pedophile worshippers.” First, there is absolutely no evidence of pedophilia. The Koresh commune was even cleared of child abuse charges just a few months prior to the initial incidents at the compound. These charges were unfounded; they were leveled at Koresh by a disenchanted Australian member Koresh had kicked out of the community. Second, the concern I have is rather generic. The increasing militarization of law enforcement and the apparent disregard they have for anyone more than a little bit out of the mainstream. Yeah, Koresh had a bunch of guns and bibles in the compound and he was admittedly an odd duck, but other than a few receivers which could have been converted to full-auto (but which **hadn’t** been at the time of the raids) there was absolutely no reason to be overly concerned about the guy and his beliefs and activities. There was nothing going on there that had law enforcement acted responsibly & ethically at the outset that could not have been peaceably resolved. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/77 "2006-05-16T20:26:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Yes. They needed to get that scumbag out of the building and they needed to protect their own officers from the child-murdering loonies who worshipped him. What’s wrong with tear gas, by the way? You don’t actually think the “govermnet started the fire” do you? Are you that far gone down the conspiracy path? [/QUOTE] Well, a Democrat **was** in the Oval Office, after all. You never know how far they’ll sink. Oh, right **Unclebeer** is an _independent_. (snort) -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/78 "2006-05-16T20:33:14Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBeer] Indirectly, yes. The ATF and FBI was warned several times about the intensely flammable nature of the volume of CS tear “gas” which they poured into the structure by several DOD advisers. This “gas,” which isn’t a gas at all, but a very fine powder, is highly flammable - particularly when used in such high concentrations. So it certainly added to intensity of the conflagration. I do not believe it was the intent of the government to send these people to a fiery death, but certain of the government acts increased the possibility of the final outcome and when the fire did start, increased its severity. And a couple additional points about your comment I quoted previously - the apparent concern I have for a “bunch of pedophile worshippers.” First, there is absolutely no evidence of pedophilia. The Koresh commune was even cleared of child abuse charges just a few months prior to the initial incidents at the compound. These charges were unfounded; they were leveled at Koresh by a disenchanted Australian member Koresh had kicked out of the community. Second, the concern I have is rather generic. The increasing militarization of law enforcement and the apparent disregard they have for anyone more than a little bit out of the mainstream. Yeah, Koresh had a bunch of guns and bibles in the compound and he was admittedly an odd duck, but other than a few receivers which could have been converted to full-auto (but which **hadn’t** been at the time of the raids) there was absolutely no reason to be overly concerned about the guy and his beliefs and activities. There was nothing going on there that had law enforcement acted responsibly & ethically at the outset that could not have been peaceably resolved. [/QUOTE] 1. The fires were started by the Davidians themselves from inside the compound. 2. Surviving BD’s testified to Congress after the incident in detail about Koresh’s physical and sexual abuse of children in the compound. One victim testified that Koresh physically raped her when she was ten years old. Other members testified extensively about how Koresh made a practice of “marrying” young girls within the compound. I once did a research paper on Waco and read the transcripts myself. I have to go out for awhile and don’t have time to search right now, but later this evening I’ll try to find the transcripts from the Congressional record. 3. The only one refusing to resolve things peacefully was Pedophile Jesus himself. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/79 "2006-05-16T20:45:51Z")
> [@](#): > > If Koresh had just obeyed the warrant and given himself up, there wouldn’t have been any problem. Except that the warrants were never served. In fact, the ATF didn’t even have them on hand when they supposedly went to serve them. The ATF decided up front that force was needed and never even tried to peaceably serve Koresh. > [@](#): > > That still didn’t make it OK for Koresh and his followers to start shooting at federal agents and it’s not the reason they died. You’re aware, of course, that there is much debate over who started the shooting, right? And you’re also aware that there were two separate incidents at the Branch Davidian compound, yes? The ATF requested their warrants on 2/25 and received them on 2/26. On the morning of 2/28 the ATF, prior to making any other attempt to serve the warrants, executed their plan for a “dynamic entry,” using those foolish cattle trailers. The Davidians had been tipped off and were aremed and ready for the invasion. A gun battle, in which it has never been determined who shot first, ensued. There simply was never **any** attempt to peaceably serve Koresh. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903/80 "2006-05-16T20:57:11Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] 1. The fires were started by the Davidians themselves from inside the compound. 2. Surviving BD’s testified to Congress after the incident in detail about Koresh’s physical and sexual abuse of children in the compound. One victim testified that Koresh physically raped her when she was ten years old. Other members testified extensively about how Koresh made a practice of “marrying” young girls within the compound. I once did a research paper on Waco and read the transcripts myself. I have to go out for awhile and don’t have time to search right now, but later this evening I’ll try to find the transcripts from the Congressional record. 3. The only one refusing to resolve things peacefully was Pedophile Jesus himself. [/QUOTE] 1. Not proven. And FBI and ATF knew their actions were risking fire, too. 2. Lots of things have been testifed to in front of Congress. Not all of them truthful, I’d wager. 3. Because he was being goaded by persons who also no interest in resolving the thing peacefully. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-just-admit-it/356903.md?page=5)