What we need to do is deploy a force of thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses to patrol the border, along with Mary Kay salespeople, and telemarketers (who can just shout their spiels through megaphones). They’ll run like hell.
Are you not aware that the United Nations doesn’t have any troops? Those troops serving UN peacekeeping missions are those of the UN’s member states.
Right. Or Clinton. Clinton and Reno felt free to ignore posse comitatus when it suited them, too. They even went as far as to use the military on U.S. citizens in Waco and for certain resources obtained approval from the Joint Chiefs of Staff to do so. That, of course, doesn’t make it acceptable for Bush to do the same, but it ain’t nothin’ new.
The BATF isn’t military, it’s law enforcement. Your paranoid conspiracy page says they used military equipment but so the fuck what? You assertion that Clinton and Reno “used the military on US civilians” is patently false. They used federal law enforcement like they were supposed to and the crazy fucks decided to murder their own children and burn themselves alive. The “military” had fuck all to do with it.
Seriously, Beer, if you’re not a Bush supporter, why grasp for straws with such tinfoil-hattery?
Can’t one of these dipfucks at least throw in a little “Carter did it!” for a little variety?
At least occasionally?
Please?
-Joe
Believe it or not, I feel sorry for the guy. (A little). The House of Reps feed an alien, go to jail bill really started this off. If he backs that all the way, the Republicans lose the Latino vote. (And the vote of anyone with a heart, but they’ve lost that already.) If he goes with the other proposal, he loses the right wing haters, which is a lot of what little is left of his base. I actually think his heart is in the right place on this, but he’s screwed.
Bush lost my support last night. For the first time in his presidency, this conservative would answer “No” if asked by a pollster if I approve of Bush’s job performance.
I think you guys accusing him of bringing up this issue to deflect from the war are off base. Possibly Senators and Representatives are, but not Bush. This issue is killing him. It’s what’s causing his poll numbers to plummet further into his base, IMO.
The democrats and leftists already hate Bush. He’s not winning them back anytime soon. By coming out in favor of amnesty-lite and trying to appeal to some kind of middle ground on the immigration issue he is infuriating his base and failing in his responsibilities to protect this country.
We should be sending 60,000 troops to the border, not 6,000. They should be planning on staying permanently, not for just one year. This would also have been a nice excuse to start drawing down troop levels in Iraq, while he was at it. We should be passing laws to punish those who hire illegals. We should be cracking down on illegals getting the benefits of social services in the US that we taxpayers are paying for.
Bush’s insistance that there is some false dichotomy of either deport 12 million people, or legalize them all is silly. What to do with those already here is an issue that can wait a while. Control the borders. Everyting else is nonsense. Even talking about some kind of guest worker program or path to citizenship while the border is pourous is a complete waste of time.
Since Pakistan is one of the largest contributor of troops to the UN maybe they can give the US a dig out and protect your borders. Fair’s fair.
BTW, how big is the focus on illegals like the estimated 50,000 Irish who flew in on a tourist visa and just stayed?
I’m pissed about anybody who is here illegally. My brother has a roomate who is illegal Irish. He came on a temp workers visa. He got a ID number to use like a social security number. He’s been illegal for years now since his visa expired. He works a Union job making 30-something dollars an hour. He gets jobs sometimes that cause American union workers to be laid off (they are very competetive for good jobsites). He uses his ID social security number to collect unemployment when he gets a layoff.
This sucks. He should be arrested and deported back to Ireland.
That said, I’m much more concerned about illegals from Mexico and South America simply because with them the scale of the problem is much larger. If there were 10-12 million Irish then I would be alarmed about that as well, believe me.
(Disclaimer: My Grandfather was an Irish immigrant. He came in legally, of course.)
Paranoid fantasy? Complete with FOIA obtained memoranda? How about the hundreds of other google hits which assert a violation of posse comitatus during the standoff and siege at Waco?
Tinfoil hattery? Then why the federal subterfuge about Mount Carmel being a drug lab? That was introduced solely to evade the restrictions on using military personnel and material inside the U.S. borders.
Check this one out of your local library. Plenty of evidence in there that military personnel and equipment were used in the assualt on Mount Carmel.No More Wacos for a fully documented account.
How 'bout the three National Guardsmen who testified under oath that they overflew the Mount Carmel ranch? They’re only caveat to this testimony was that they never got closer than 300 yards. KWTX newsman on the scene, Dan Mulloney, said the helicopters were within 100 yards.
And the fucking DOJ itself says you are wrong: This
Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas clearly shows 15 active duty federal military personnel were engaged. Plus 13 more from the Texas National Guard. See also Appendix B to this report.
Why should we? Clinton is just as guilty as Dubya on this score. Does it hurt so to see your own ox gored? If you refuse to accept Clinton, then how 'bout Bush the elder? He also used the drug war as an illicit subterfuge in order to use military assets to attack Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge. I assure you, I’m entirely non-partisan on this issue.
You’re actually about 100% correct. Improving enforcement whilst sort of grandfathering the current illegals is probably the only workable solution, and it’s quite humane to boot.
An interesting thing about these new Latino voters: They swing Dem. on some issues, but swing hard in a Rep. direction when it comes to classic social conservative concerns like abortion and gay marriage, as they’re conservatively Catholic. The “right wing haters” should be throwing garlands in the Rio Grande to welcome these folks across, but they can’t get past the complexion. Meanwhile, Dobson&Co. are fit to rebel because, well, abortion isn’t illegal yet, evolution is still being forced on their children, and men still get to fuck each other up the ass without official recrimination. Bush as the “Uniter” would bring these folks together to form the Republican base of the new century, but the potential constituents can’t stand each other. I see Rove’s hand in all of this, and it’s really quite brilliant. Harp on Jeb’s marriage, throw some Texican Spanglish around, play up traditional values angle, and you’ve got a huge new voting bloc that’s growing by leaps. They just hate being treated like wetbacks. And many of the traditional base want fervently to ship 'em back across the River.
I’ll never feel sorry for Bush though. He made this bed of nails, and he’s sleeping in it about as comfortably as one could reasonably expect. He kissed up to the radical right, and now he’s paying for it. If it costs him and his party, serves 'em fucking right.
You know, there is some truth to that. Queer wetbacks do the jobs American queers won’t do! Yeah? Like what? Go-go dance at the local strip club?
Seriously though, even if immigration is a diversionary issue, I’m glad we’re talking about it. It’s actually more important to me than Iraq or Katrina or any number other issues “they” might be diverting our attention from.
I live in a state where a lot of US money is earned and then sent to Mexico & all points south. We have hospitals close because they can’t afford to keep providing free healthcare to illegals. Our schools spend who knows how much trying to give everybody a good education. Everybody meaning free for illegals, or the children of illegals.
Having such an open border has bothered me since before 9/11. Think of all the drugs that come into the country every year. It would be nice if we could hold someone accountable for letting it in. Might reveal some interesting things about the DEA for instance, if we had a firmer grip on what flows to and fro across our borders.
I like being friends with Canada & Mexico. We’re all buds. Come visit! Often! Legally, through the border checkpoint. Izzat so hard?
This being the only cite rising above the level of Unabomber manifesto, I’ll ask you to point out where it says the military personnel, who presumably were involved in support roles, such as flying the helicopters used by federal agents to surveil, violated posse comitatus. Note not a single one of them were killed or injured (all the casualties besides the Branch Davidians were ATF agents), and military personnel appear to have made up only 28 of the 668 individuals deployed by Federal law enforcement. Were these people shooting at and apprehending Branch Davidians? If not, what the fuck are you on about?
No issue with that whatsoever.
Well you don’t have to worry as there’s only four million of us, we just make a lot of noise 
All the same there must be areas like Boston and maybe parts of NY were the Irish must give the Mexicans a run for their money in numbers. Although thinking of it they wouldn’t be the most supportive of Bush’s policies.
Except, ya know, all those documents obtained under the FOIA act shown in my link. And the analysis contained in Koppel’s book also linked. And the dozens of mainstream newspapers where possible posse comitatus violations at Waco are discussed which a google search returns. You can google 'em up yourself and judge their veracity. I’m not gonna provide an exhaustive list for you just to cherry-pick a couple and use 'em to dismiss everything else as “tinfoil hattery.” You wanna disqualify 'em, you can do the work.
What possible difference could that make? The use of firearms isn’t a necessary condition of posse comitatus violations. Anyway, who do you suppose was driving those two Abrams tanks requisitioned by the ATF and FBI from Fort Hood and deployed at Mount Carmel. I’m pretty certain ATF and FBI agents don’t have those skills. Further, the military deployments Bush is proposing on our border with Mexico haven’t shot any civilians either - yet. So again, what possible difference does your distinction hold?
I’m on about the use of active duty military personnel being used in law enforcement activities. Just like the OP.
Again, the use of military personnel and equipment is not prohibited if they are used to support law enforcement. If a solder operates a military vehicle transporting law enforcement agents, I can’t see how that violates posse comitatus, according to current law. If the solders were shooting at and apprehending suspects, that would be a violation. So, again, unless you’ve got some some other good evidence that’s what happened (which I’ve never heard of), I don’t have to cherry pick. All of your cites simply parrot the official documentation that “the military” was somehow involved, no matter what capacity, ignore their probable support role, and appear to argue the mere presence of military personnel and use of equipment points to guilt. That is no more true of Waco than what the currrent administration appears to want to do with the Natl. Guard to patrol borders. It’s not illegal for the military to support law enforcement as long as they’re not directly enforcing the law.
So you believe the ATF wanted Abrams tanks for which: administrative support, or personnel transport?
Hey, an Abrams tank makes a helluva paperweight.
It’s irrelevant what they wanted the tanks for. Posse Comitatus says nothing about what kind of equipment law enforcement is allowed to use.