# George R.R. Martin's querky English **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 8, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248 "2011-07-08T00:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/1 "2011-07-08T00:14:38Z")
I generally like George R.R. Martin’s works, but sometimes his quirky English gets a bit too contrived. Examples: “Ser” instead of “Sir” for knights- for no particular reason (why call them knights instead of Naights?) “Mislike”- consistently used instead of dislike “Nuncle”- what everybody with an uncle calls their uncle And his names can become a bit odd as well. He uses names like Robert, Jon, and I believe there’s a Richard, but otherwise he’ll give them a twist: Catelyn instead of Caitlin or Catherine, Arya instead of Aria, etc… Sometimes he’s clearly influenced by medieval history, such as Melisandre (a close tweak of [Melisande](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisende_of_Jerusalem), the name of several prominent French noblewomen in France and the French held Holy Land) or Brienne (as in [John of Brienne](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Brienne)). Some are contrived though: Jaime and Kevan instead of Jamie and Kevin, or Robett instead of Robert. Any love or hate or neutrality for Martin’s tweaking of English words and given names? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/2 "2011-07-08T00:28:56Z")
He didn’t make up the spelling he uses for Catelyn: it’s an English surname. This [Catelyn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Catelyn) was a member of the House of Commons back during the 1500s. Anyway, I don’t care one way or another about how he spells the names, so mark me neutral. You **expect** fantasy series to contain unfamiliar names, and he could have given the characters much stranger names (example: what the hell is a “Drizzt”? Sounds like a bug zapper) than he did. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/3 "2011-07-08T00:46:09Z")
Yes, the names are okay. It’s not Europe. Or Earth, for that matter. The naming conventions will be at least slightly different, and, as has been noted, there are whole legions of much worse fantasy naming conventions out there. And I do still stumble over “Ser” (I keep wanting to pronounce it “sayr”), but I think it’s just different enough without being TOO different to convey the idea that Westeros’s knights aren’t QUITE the shiny-armored martial saints that the concept conveys in our world. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/4 "2011-07-08T00:47:28Z")
Yes, I think it’s just to give the world an otherworldly, fantasy feel, and it works nicely. I really like the names. Well, except Jaime, which I keep wanting to pronounce like the Spanish name. Or like James without the ‘s’, which according to the show is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/5 "2011-07-08T00:58:38Z")
I think ‘nuncle’ is a contraction of ‘mine uncle’ and IIRC was used in Shakespeare. As for ‘Ser’, well, I figured he was just trying to be different with that one but maybe he got it from Spanish (to be)? Or it could just be trying to spell it like it’s being said in Westros. Mislike is certainly a real word and I guess like the other it’s supposed to give an old world/other worldly feel to the stories, sort of that psudo-old English air…or, in other places a hint of Scotch/Gaelic flair. If you haven’t listened to the unabridged audio books of the story I highly recommend them…I think the guy reading them (Roy Dotrice) is by far the best reader since the guy who did the Harry Potter unabridged audio, and when you hear it the language is definitely not stilted or affected but really flows. IMHO and FWIW and all that. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/6 "2011-07-08T01:01:50Z")
Though if I were to compare it to Earth- Winterfell/The North: ca. High Middle Ages Scotland and England The Iron Islands: post Viking era Scandinavia Kings Landing: Constantinople ca. 1200 (before the sack) Dorne: Turkey before the Ottomans And the Eastern Continent the various Asian and African countries of course. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/7 "2011-07-08T01:10:15Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Though if I were to compare it to Earth- > > Winterfell/The North: ca. High Middle Ages Scotland and England > > The Iron Islands: post Viking era Scandinavia > > Kings Landing: Constantinople ca. 1200 (before the sack) > > Dorne: Turkey before the Ottomans > > And the Eastern Continent the various Asian and African countries of course. Huh, I always felt that King’s Landing was more continental France than Constantinople, or perhaps Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/8 "2011-07-08T01:20:46Z")
_Mislike_ and _nuncle_ are both Shakespearean, and I’m sure I’ve come across them in other places. I’d bet he didn’t invent _ser_ either. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/9 "2011-07-08T01:38:35Z")
If you’ve ever been to a Ren Faire, you’ve heard roughly the same pronunciation he’s trying to convey with Ser. Alternately, you could consider it a divergent variation from the same root; the title Sir is from sire. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/10 "2011-07-08T02:04:29Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > I’d bet he didn’t invent _ser_ either. It’s not in the OED. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/11 "2011-07-08T02:09:09Z")
I like Martin’s naming. Way better than Steven Erikson’s Malazan books: I like it when I can determine gender from a name, but are these male or female (or other)? K’azz D’Avore, Lorn, Tattersail, Onos T’oolan Here are some of his races: T’lan Imass, K’Chain Che’Malle, Forkrul Assail Do they evoke anything? They’re unrelatable. And the apostrophes – gah. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/12 "2011-07-08T02:55:42Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > It’s not in the OED. And yet, amazingly, with a little google.work I was able to find old English usages of ‘ser’. It’s a funny world, innit? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/13 "2011-07-08T03:56:05Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I think ‘nuncle’ is a contraction of ‘mine uncle’ Yes. (Or, perhaps, ‘an uncle’, which is what Mirriam-Webster’s online dictionary claims.) This is a fairly common phenomenon, actually. It is, to connect this to ASoIaF in a different way, a likely origin for the name ‘Ned’ - people talking about their son, brother, or husband Edward or Edgar (or Eddard!) refer to him as ‘Mine Ed’, which gets reinterpreted as ‘My Ned’, and a new nickname (another word which has its origin in this process) is born. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/14 "2011-07-08T06:46:23Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > _Mislike_ and _nuncle_ are both Shakespearean, and I’m sure I’ve come across them in other places. I’d bet he didn’t invent _ser_ either. One of Lois Bujold’s Vorkosigan novels has a character named Ser Galen. Not sure if it was meant to be a first name, or an honorific. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/15 "2011-07-08T07:01:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > One of Lois Bujold’s Vorkosigan novels has a character named Ser Galen. Not sure if it was meant to be a first name, or an honorific. And L. E. Modesitt’s novels have characters calling their superiors “ser” as a general, unisex honorific. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/16 "2011-07-08T07:32:29Z")
My biggest pet peeve was “gaoler” instead of “jailer.” He’s an american author, writing about a not-Britain place. I understand he may be using it for source material, but it struck me as pure pretentiousness. Drove me nuts. (And I think at one point he may have written the word “jail” but used “gaoler” in the same general section. May be wrong about that though.) I never minded “ser” or “maester” or any of the others. I’m fine with the names, too, which as has been pointed out, are actually very tame for fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/17 "2011-07-08T12:44:48Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Jaime and Kevan instead of Jamie and Kevin, or Robett instead of Robert. I get the other two, but I know people named “Jaime”, pronounced just like GoT Jaime. Doesn’t seem contrived to me, just an alternate spelling. Other than that, I don’t mind the spelling differences. It adds a little flare to the book. Now, if he’d taken the route of not using quotes or other punctuation, as other authors have done, I’d’ve never been able to read them. I hate that stuff. Especially the no-quotes thing, it always sounds like everyone’s whispering to me. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/18 "2011-07-08T13:53:20Z")
The nuncle thing really annoys me because he didn’t start using it until Feast for Crows. Up til then everyone uses uncle, so it was jarring for me - I thought at first that my copy was full of typos. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/19 "2011-07-08T14:34:19Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > The nuncle thing really annoys me because he didn’t start using it until Feast for Crows. Up til then everyone uses uncle, so it was jarring for me - I thought at first that my copy was full of typos. I just assumed it was an Iron Islands idiom, since Asha is really the only one who uses it, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248/20 "2011-07-08T14:35:00Z")
Tolkien uses “nuncle” in _The Book of Tom Bombadil_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-r-r-martins-querky-english/588248.md?page=2)