# George Soros Throws Down Against Bush **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728 "2003-11-12T01:05:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/41 "2003-11-13T08:01:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \* > I was trying to point out the irony of **rjung** smearing Republicans by implying that they always resort to smear tactics. Irony? I thought I was merely stating a [well-known fact.](http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021025.html)🙂 Unless you think that calling a Vietnam veteran who lost three limbs in the war [a “coward” who supports Osama bin Laden](http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Max_Cleland_070303.htm) does _not_ constitute a smear… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/42 "2003-11-13T12:54:27Z")
Yeah, that canard against Cleland was really sick stuff. All Republicans with any self-respect should hang their hands in shame over it. I don’t know where people get the gall to call themselves Republicans sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/43 "2003-11-13T15:04:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*KidC, it was an outright bet and not a hedged play. Soro’s can not leverage up anywhere near what one of the big ibanks can leverage. Christ BOE was a case study when I did the O’Connor two week course as BOE had happened just a month or two earlier. We had the principal traders that put on the bet discuss it with us. This was way over any big risk limit that a prop trader or even prop desk could take. Approval went up to top management and Swiss Bank Corp was one of the big players and of the top 20, I’d wager a 90 delta that Soros wasn’t in the top 20. > > \*\* I wish I could remember back to then. I traded with SBC at the time, but if you say it went to the top then I believe it. Still, you had a 10 yard position? I’m certainly not saying that Soros broke the BOE but his position lended credibility to many others who subsequently went short. While he may not have been the most purely exposed short, his influence was much larger than his position. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/44 "2003-11-13T19:39:39Z")
And this just in… [http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/106863320599611.xml](http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/106863320599611.xml) "Lewis pledges $12 million to oust Bush for presidential race " Rich people as good guys. Gonna take some getting used to. It could be wonderful. If GeeDubya comes out with his multi-million dollar advantage (gonna be at least $100 million more than the Dem) and loses… What a stunning victory for democracy that would be! ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/45 "2003-11-13T20:23:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _rjung:_ > I thought I was merely stating a well-known fact.🙂 Unless you think that calling a Vietnam veteran who lost three limbs in the war a “coward” who supports Osama bin Laden does not constitute a smear… Yes, the Cleland stuff was terrible. But how do you get from “Chambliss put out a terrible attack ad” to “Republicans always resort to smear campaigns”? Especially since your cite says this: > [@](#): > > _Both sides ran attack ads_, but none was as controversial as Chambliss’s homeland security spot. > . . . . > Immediately the ad was denounced, not just by Democrats but also by two Republican senators – John McCain and Chuck Hagel, both of them Vietnam veterans. > > “I’ve never seen anything like that ad,” says McCain. “Putting pictures of Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden next to a picture of a man who left three limbs on the battlefield – it’s worse than disgraceful, it’s reprehensible.” > > Irate, Hagel told Republican officials that if they didn’t pull the ad, he would make an ad denouncing them. After that, Chambliss’s campaign removed the pictures of Hussein and bin Laden from the ad. Also, I didn’t see anywhere in the ad that it called Cleeland “a ‘coward’ who supports Osama bin Laden.” The ad did say Cleeland “lacked the courage to lead” and put pictures of Cleeland next to pics of ObL and Saddam Hussein (which is terrible), but slamming Republican misrepresentations with misrepresentations of your own is exactly the kind of irony I was talking about before. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/46 "2003-11-14T02:30:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\* IIRC, Bush has something like $200M in his war I mean camapaign chest, so this is still a long way from parity._\* According to the 11/13 edition of USA Today, the Bush campaign has raised about $100 million so far. So I guess his “war chest” is half empty. ☹ The announced Bush campaign fundraising goal is $170 million, which is obscene enough. Ever wonder what a really inspirational candidate could do with far less money and hordes of eager volunteers? I read today that with Howard Dean’s new labor union endorsements, he has 3 million motivated, trained campaign volunteers added to his repertoire. Does this mean that in addition to Jehovah’s Witnesses and high school band fundraisers knocking at my door, I can expect to be harangued by members of AFSCME? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/47 "2003-11-14T08:38:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \* > But how do you get from “Chambliss put out a terrible attack ad” to “Republicans always resort to smear campaigns”? Well, the first cite I linked to (the Spinsanity article) listed five examples of politicizing terrorists – one from a Democrat (Jean Carnahan) and four from Republicans (Dick Armey, Saxby Chambliss, Jim Thune, and Rush Limbaugh). That appears to indicate a preponderance among Republicans to use terrorist-based smears against their foes, IMO. And to nitpick, I never said “Republicans _always_ resort to smear campaigns.” I do think it’s an overused tool in their arsenal, however. > [@](#): > > Also, I didn’t see anywhere in the ad that it called Cleeland “a ‘coward’ who supports Osama bin Laden.” The ad did say Cleeland “lacked the courage to lead” and put pictures of Cleeland next to pics of ObL and Saddam Hussein (which is terrible), but slamming Republican misrepresentations with misrepresentations of your own is exactly the kind of irony I was talking about before. This is like saying George W. Bush never claimed that Iraq posed an imminent threat to the United States because he never uttered the exact phrase, “imminent threat,” eh? Or maybe I’m just not creative enough, because I’m hard-pressed to think of a legitimate purpose for putting pictures of Cleeland next to Osama and Saddam… ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/48 "2003-11-14T09:20:30Z")
I hope the Justice Dept. starts investigating Soros-this bum has gotten rich through currency manipulation and stock-pumping fraud! If I were Mr. Soros, I’d be careful-I think the IRS will be conducting a VERY thorough audit of Mr,. Soros’ income tax returns…it will be intetresting ro see what kind of racketeering this guy has been in toio! Soros is really mad because he took a major position AGAINST the US dollar two years aGO\_AND WATCHED AS HIS OPTIONS BECAME WORTHLESS (as the US dollar continued to rise. I have no pity for Soros-he’s a worthless parasite like Marc Rich. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/49 "2003-11-14T18:03:54Z")
> [@](#): > > _rjung:_ > Well, the first cite I linked to (the Spinsanity article) listed five examples of politicizing terrorists – one from a Democrat (Jean Carnahan) and four from Republicans (Dick Armey, Saxby Chambliss, Jim Thune, and Rush Limbaugh). That appears to indicate a preponderance among Republicans to use terrorist-based smears against their foes, IMO. 4 Republicans are a preponderance? Do you think there are only 7 Republicans total? 4 instances of politicizing terror and terroristic threats is a preponderance? Have there only been 7 political statements ever made? This point is beneath you. Surely you don’t actually think the 4 examples given are enough to generalize about all Republicans, do you? Or can I make broad generalizations about the Democratic party based on statements made by Carolyn Mosely-Braun, Noam Chomsky, Martha Burke, and **ElvisL1ves**? > [@](#): > > _rjung:_ > And to nitpick, I never said “Republicans always resort to smear campaigns.” I do think it’s an overused tool in their arsenal, however. A fair point. And I totally agree that it’s an overused tool. > [@](#): > > _rjung:_ > Or maybe I’m just not creative enough, because I’m hard-pressed to think of a legitimate purpose for putting pictures of Cleeland next to Osama and Saddam… The purpose is to show the threat that Cleeland allegedly couldn’t defend the country against. Merely putting two pictures side by side does not indicate that one picture supports the other. But this point is so obvious that I have to assume that you already knew it. The actual message was ridiculous enough. You don’t have to exaggerate for effect. Both parties have actually done enough bad stuff that there’s really no reason to misrepresent things that actually happened. And putting the word “coward” in quotes – as if to indicate that it was a direct quote from the ad – is clearly misrepresenting what happened. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/50 "2003-11-14T18:42:42Z")
More bluster to mask a lack of facts. You’ve failed to provide any examples of these alleged “Democratic lies”, and are reduced to complaining that paraphrases are automatically dishonest, and that ads that put 2 pictures together aren’t necessarily intended to imply connections. Knock off the weaseling and try supporting your own assertions with a few choice examples of your own. If you can’t, perhaps you’ll have learned something despite yourself. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/51 "2003-11-14T19:28:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ralph124c \* > \*\*I hope the Justice Dept. starts investigating Soros-this bum has gotten rich through currency manipulation and stock-pumping fraud! If I were Mr. Soros, I’d be careful-I think the IRS will be conducting a VERY thorough audit of Mr,. Soros’ income tax returns…it will be intetresting ro see what kind of racketeering this guy has been in toio! > Soros is really mad because he took a major position AGAINST the US dollar two years aGO\_AND WATCHED AS HIS OPTIONS BECAME WORTHLESS (as the US dollar continued to rise. I have no pity for Soros-he’s a worthless parasite like Marc Rich. \*\* Oh please. You betray your ignorance of finance with lines like “gotten rich through currency manipulation and stock-pumping fraud.” Soros and his ilk are constantly monitored by the IRS. Hell, we had a nearly half a floor dedicated to the IRS people who were constantly auditing us. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/52 "2003-11-14T20:10:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _ElvisL1ves:_ > You’ve failed to provide any examples of these alleged “Democratic lies”, and are reduced to complaining that paraphrases are automatically dishonest, and that ads that put 2 pictures together aren’t necessarily intended to imply connections. Good ol’ **Elvis** , the one trick pony. I never made any allegation of “Democratic lies.” Nor did I ever say that ads that put 2 pictures together aren’t necessarily intended to imply connections. I merely said that the Chambliss ad didn’t necessarily imply the connection asserted by **rjung**. In fact, I pointed out a more likely connection between the pictures. Quit making stuff up. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/53 "2003-11-14T20:37:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Age Quod Agis \* > 4 Republicans are a preponderance? Do you think there are only 7 Republicans total? No, my reasoning is this – 1. Spinsanity documented five examples of using terrorism to smear political opponents, and 4 out of 5 examples were from Republicans. 2. Either Spinsanity documented those five because those were the only five examples available, or Spinsanity documented those five as a representative example of the kind of spin going on. 3. In _either_ scenario, you end up with a 4:1 ratio of Republicans using extreme smear campaigns vs. Democrat efforts. 4. Ergo, Republicans are more likely to use extreme smear campaigns against their opponents than Democrats do. QED. Now, you could argue that Spinsanity is biased against the Republicans, but that’s an argument you’ll need to make first. > [@](#): > > The purpose is to show the threat that Cleeland allegedly couldn’t defend the country against. Merely putting two pictures side by side does not indicate that one picture supports the other. Uh, right. So if I had a picture of Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and George W. Bush, that’d be okay, then? After all, I’m just pointing out that Bush never faced off against the first two guys, right? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And putting the word “coward” in quotes – as if to indicate that it was a direct quote from the ad – is clearly misrepresenting what happened. Aw, geez, not the “He never used _that exact word_” defense again… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/54 "2003-11-14T20:52:29Z")
**Age** , I did not make this up: “Both parties have actually done enough bad stuff …” Not only do you not read OP-linked stories, you clearly don’t even read your own posts. Now explain what the hell you meant by that, with examples if you please. You may drop the personal insults meanwhile, too; until you accept responsibility for your own statements that stuff will just further cripple your credbility. What **rjung** has just said, too. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/55 "2003-11-14T21:58:07Z")
> [@](#): > > _rjung:_ > No, my reasoning is this – > > 1. Spinsanity documented five examples of using terrorism to smear political opponents, and 4 out of 5 examples were from Republicans. > 2. Either Spinsanity documented those five because those were the only five examples available, or Spinsanity documented those five as a representative example of the kind of spin going on. > 3. In either scenario, you end up with a 4:1 ratio of Republicans using extreme smear campaigns vs. Democrat efforts. > 4. Ergo, Republicans are more likely to use extreme smear campaigns against their opponents than Democrats do. QED. This is a joke, right? I doubt very seriously that you believe you can extrapolate from the examples used in a single article to the American political scene at large, especially since the article made no pretense of providing a representative sample. I won’t take this argument seriously because to do so would insult your intelligence. > [@](#): > > _rjung:_ > So if I had a picture of Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and George W. Bush, that’d be okay, then? After all, I’m just pointing out that Bush never faced off against the first two guys, right? In fact, I repeatedly said that the Chambliss ad was _not_ fine. I called it terrible (twice). I called it ridiculous. I never called it okay. Please, please, please don’t do this. I realize that others use this tactic with alarming frequency, but I’m begging you not to mischaracterize other’s arguments. As for whether your placement of Hitler and Stalin next to Bush would be fine, that would depend on the context and the intended message. Once again, that’s an answer that’s so obvious I’m surprised I have to give it. > [@](#): > > _rjung:_ > Aw, geez, not the “He never used that exact word” defense again… If it’s not a quote, then why did you use quotation marks? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/56 "2003-11-14T22:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _ElvisL1ves:_ > Age, I did not make this up: “Both parties have actually done enough bad stuff …” Not only do you not read OP-linked stories, you clearly don’t even read your own posts. > > Now explain what the hell you meant by that, with examples if you please. First of all, you still haven’t provided any support for your assertion that I alleged “Democratic lies.” And I’ve noticed that you’ve just ignored the fact that I never said “that ads that put 2 pictures together aren’t necessarily intended to imply connections.” I’ll assume that you’re conceding these points. The first step to understanding what I meant is to read the entire sentence. The entire sentence reads, “Both parties have actually done enough bad stuff that there’s really no reason to misrepresent things that actually happened.” If that’s not clear enough, I think you can see my point if you combine that sentence with the preceding one: “You don’t have to exaggerate for effect.” If that still doesn’t work, try reading the entire paragraph. If you still don’t recognize the point I’m trying to make, then maybe you can struggle through the entire post. If that doesn’t work, I’d invite you to ask me specifically what you don’t understand. I wouldn’t have thought I’d need to provide examples showing that both parties have done bad stuff, but since you’ve asked, you could find examples in the cites provided by **rjung** , and which were discussed in other posts. 1) “Both sides ran attack ads . . . .”; 2) Rush Limbaugh’s comparison of Democrats to terrorists; 3) this, from the Spinsanity link: > [@](#): > > _Spinsanity:_ > On October 13th, Senator Jean Carnahan, D-Missouri, told a group of supporters in Missouri that the White House “can’t get Osama bin Laden, so they’re going to get me.” After an outcry from prominent Republicans, including Republican National Committee chairman Marc Racicot and Missouri Republican Party chairwoman Ann Wagner, Carnahan apologized for her remarks." There. Now can we agree that both parties have done bad stuff and that there’s no need to exaggerate what’s actually happened? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/57 "2003-11-15T08:58:18Z")
Just thought I’d share my email from [bushcheney04@georgewbush.com](mailto:bushcheney04@georgewbush.com): > [@](#): > > \*\* > Liberal soft money groups with funding from billionaire George Soros are amassing millions to defeat our President. The liberal activist says that defeating President Bush is the “central focus of my life” and the Wall Street Journal says that he sees “America as the gravest threat to world freedom.” Make sure your community knows of the Democrat’s billionaire that is leading their soft money machine – call your local talk radio today! > > Your Local Shows: > > Taz In The Morning > 555-555-555 > \*\* and so forth. What is a real puzzle is how I ended up on their spam list… ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/58 "2003-11-15T10:45:52Z")
It’s coming from **inside your house** , Stoid! Run! ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2020, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/64 "2020-03-31T10:39:13Z")
Reported ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728/70 "2020-03-31T14:14:10Z")
Let’s extend a big _Thank You_ to the spam-bumper for reminding us of, and leaving us yearning for, our halcyon days when the re-election Bush & Cheney was America’s biggest worry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/george-soros-throws-down-against-bush/212728.md?page=4)